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#1 |
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 12
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Had a fellow send me these pics asking what this was. Does anyone recognize the script in the blade??
Best Craig |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
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There is a strange dissonance between the demonstratively crude blade/tang/inscription and the very fine and civilized marking at the ricasso (profiled face). The conspicuos lack of any disfiguring rusting or deep patina is also strange. None of the letters make much sense to me.
I am very suspicious that this is a 19th -20th (more likely) century "replica". As they say in South Africa, "I've put my cock on the block" (they mean rooster, of course...) |
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#3 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Athens Greece
Posts: 479
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I dont think it is a script on it. It looks like fantasy sword. With a lot of fantasy on
![]() But it is really well made, exept the tang. They didnt gave lot of attention on the tang because it was covered with a hilt. Anyway, I like it. It has a character. ![]() |
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#4 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Moenchengladbach, Germany
Posts: 62
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I don't know if this is important but the tang seems to be welded onto the blade. Concerning the blade, maybe there once was an inscription on it which did not suit the new owner so he destroyd it. But this is only a guess.
Greetings, Helge |
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#5 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Posts: 1,254
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Very interesting. Don't get discouraged over a "fantasy" sword. This is a hand made piece and very interesting if nothing else. The decorations are forged. I see no writing; only patterns imitative of blade grooves. The lion and the human have a N/E African (Ethiopian?) look. The welded on tang is very meaningful; if the piece was made by an industrial human he was being not only consciously primitive, but knowledgeably primitive. I'd more suggest the "fine art" scene than the recreator scene, but then Europe may be a bit different (AFAIK in that the reenactors etc. are much more authentic and serious as a rule; often only allowing exact copies of specific archaeological pieces to be used, for instance.). On the other hand the tang has a modern look (well, mostly the big hole; other than that it's not real unusual). The thing has features of many blades I've seen, but in unprecedented combination, perhaps. Any imput on temper? Sharpness? The flats appear to have been ground on (or what are those lines?)? It looks like a "primitive" copy of Indo Persian work?
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#6 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Posts: 1,254
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Is this your sword then? It's very interesting. First, it is not a product of industrial processes, so if it was made by a person from an industrial culture it was with very deliberate and somewhat knowledgeable primitiveness. The welded on tang is the proof pudding for that; industrial culture dislikes a welded on tang, especially when it's the whole thing and not just the back end. Then of course, it is a hammer weld. All the decorations are forged in hot, though the flats seem to have been polished by grinding (? or what are those lines?). I do not think there is any writing, just geometric patterns, made up of lines of repeated stamps, perhaps with some traditional meaning, but mostly just decorative. The lion and the human both seem to be one-piece stamps that were hammered into the hot blade.
I'm not sure what nationality I might guess; if European probably made by a "fine art" art-scene artist/a blacksmith shooting for that scene. If traditional, it's like many things I've seen and unlike all of them..... ![]() I like the looks of it. Any further information on how it was acquired? Any input on temper? Ever sharp? |
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#7 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Posts: 1,254
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So I wrote two replies sort of kind of accidentally. See if they agree with each other; it's fun
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#8 |
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 232
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I believe it's the blade form a Kaskara. I have one (complete with scabbard) that came out of Eritrea. It has the same pattern, which I belive is made to "imitate" the etching in the fullers. It also has two "heads" identical to the one in yours. No lion, though. Has anyone ever taken the hilt off a Kaskara? Is there a hole in the tang?
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#9 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Posts: 1,254
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I haven't (takouba yes though). It is, however, my information that they usually do not have a pin or rivet thru the blade, and also that the tang is usually full-length and peined at the butt.
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#10 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 215
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Roano,
Interesting, I see it. At first I saw that "emporer" or whatever he is and thought of some old roman coins I have, but it certainly could be an attempt to imitate the Menelik II or Haille Selassie's image on Abyssinian swords. Especially with the lion on the reverse. And again, the attempt to mimic the pattern in the blade fullers. Seems plausible, but now I really want to know who, when, and why...... |
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#11 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Posts: 1,254
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Yeah, I see it, too, but I also see the part length tang with the big hole, and that's what I'm not sure fits. The transverse forged line at the blade base is seen on Berbese (and on Oceanic SE Asian) work. The three lines seem imitative of triple fullers, which are common and widespread, but certainly fit, and also bear a cetain vague resemblance to the spinal decorations on kodme (Berbese Mediterranean dirks). The human looks REALLY Afrasian to me; so that fits, too; the instant reminding is of ancient Egyptian portraiture, for instance; Ethiopeans, Berbers, Somalis, Arabs are for instance also Afrasian (it's a language group; that's how contemporary anthropologists like to divide humans up, usually). The lion reminds of lions seen on this forum on blades made in Europe for the Ethiopean military (yes?) market. Still suspecting it is NE African (Ethiopean, etc.), and the tang resembles short tangs of jambiya and some qamas/kinzhals/etc. that I've been told are the Persian ones. it's the big hole that throws me or that doesn't fit; everything doesn't have to fit, but I'm just saying. The placement of this hole would require a pin that would pass through the very end of the upper lagnet of a Turkic cross type handguard (ala kilij etc.) at best, or thru just the handle (whether there is such a guard or not), which is seen on some N/W Slavo-Turkic sabres, for instance, and it is a particularly large hole, too.......no solid knowledge on the whole thing, but that's the most mysterious factor to me. My guess remains Afrasian/Islamic/Indo-Persian, and most likely NE African; Ethiopea being kind of most suggested. Of course, there's still nothing to rule out it being European neoclassicism or orientalism or whatnot, except that while the big hole in the tang doesn't seem Afrasian, the weld at the base of the tang doesn't seem like (modern) European cutler work, though in decorative arts....Advice? Try to find/specifically identify the patterns to some cultural context. Is it now or has it been sharp? If the edges are conspicuously flat/squared/rebated that slants things considerably toward an art object/decorator sword/whatever and toward Europe. I don't imagine it is spring tempered, or do you check that kind of thing? Many collectors don't, which is understandable. I even broke a sword once flexing it. It was a bad sword; an European 19th c. wallhanger with a cast iron blade (it turns out
![]() Last edited by tom hyle; 19th June 2005 at 05:13 PM. |
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#12 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 215
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Hi guys,
I'm posting these for Roano. Certainly does look a lot like this kaskara and the first example are cousins. -d |
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#13 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Posts: 1,254
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Yep, sure does. Workmanship is identical, eh?
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#14 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,870
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I tend to agree with most of the observations so far, that this is probably an earlier 20th century blade and Roanoa's Eritrean example kaskara is most compelling. The 'script' on this blade seems to be stylized interpretation much in the sense of 'thuluth' as found etched on Mahdist kaskaras, and may be intended to represent ancient Geez characters along with the apparant classical theme of the motif. The profiled head seems to correspond with ancient silhouettes on coins as Derek has mentioned, and possibly there may be some connection to some ruler of the ancient Axumite civilization that existed in Eritrea? The lion is atypical of the familiar and regally portrayed Lion of Judah seen on Ethiopian weapons and seems more totemic or allegorical.
It is important to note that in Eritrea the kaskara remains symbolically important as an element of status in costume as well as ceremonially used. A friend who is from Eritrea once lent me a video of ceremonial dances from his country, which was completely intriguing (especially to my wife who finally had to enter my domain to find out what in the world I was listening to! ![]() Best regards, Jim |
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#15 |
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 12
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Hello All
Thanks for all the info. Great stuff as usuall. Here are some details the fellow sent. The edge is sharp, it has a great deal of flex, at the tip I'd say 3/32 thick and close to 3/16 at tang. The sword is sharper toward the tip, I'd say the last 18 inches especially. The whole in the tang maybe an elemnet that was used for storage of the blade prior to hilting. I have seen it here and there on different examples of unhilted blades I have come across and it does work well to store a large number of blades in a small space. As far as kaskara go I believe we have had one donated to the Oakeshott Institute recently with another piece when I have them cleaned up and photographed I will post for all. I will also pass on the info to this fellow. Best Craig |
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#16 |
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2
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Many thanks for the help on identifying this sword. It belongs to a friend of mine. I have told him of your findings, he asked me to tell you that it was covered in a very heavy rust we he got it, and he soaked it for weeks in oil trying to clean it up.
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#17 |
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2
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Does any one of this group have an approximate value for this piece, I assume he'll want to dispose of it since it isn't extremely old?????
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#18 |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,725
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If anyone would like to opine as to value, please do so via PM or email. Thanks.
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#19 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
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Finally I don't understand this blade is Ethiopian or not?
If it is Ethiopian, the blade should be from the 19th and not 20th? I' confused here... Thanks for help ![]() |
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#20 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,284
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It will be interesting to hear comments from our members ten years on .....
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#21 |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,063
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Looks like a fairly standard "Kaskara" blade, probably 19th C. trade blade made in Europe. The pierced short tang is typical of these Sudanese swords.
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#22 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
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Thanks, I agree for Kaskara.
I saw on different forums that these blades are Ethiopian from the beginning of 20th c. And I read that Sudanese reused a lot of Ethiopian blade in the 19th c. Also the Ethiopian blades were in fact produced in Germany and the UK. What a mess! I would like to know more on this particularf type of blade... ![]() |
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