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#1 |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG)
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Good day Gentlemen
sorry if I'm almost absent, but countries visited aren't too much offering internet connections facilities ... ![]() in Isfahan (Iran) I got this knife, but difficulty to identifiy it your precious help is required, thanks per anticipation à + Dom |
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#2 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
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A very nice looking item Dom,
Nice steel, nice marks. Not a pesh kabz, i would say. With that peculiar blade point ... would it actualy be a weapon ? ![]() Certainly the experts will ID this piece. I will hopefuly expect so. Fernando |
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#3 |
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It looks Afghan to me but I have a big problem with tip it is totally non functional and it even looks like it was pinned on? The steel looks acid etch to me also.
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#4 |
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I like it a lot.
It almost looks to me like a european piece that has been altered to have the 'ring splitter' added, making it more like a similarly 'armed' persian kard. I also agree with Lew that my first impression of the patterning was 'added'. Also, is that a 'frog button' on the scabbard? |
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#5 |
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Although it is not my field at all, i like this one very much. Don't know how this kind of dagger is called but the tip is certainly for piercing armor.
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2942 Found this one on oriental arms. As far as I know they don't have problems with placing the link here. Nice find. |
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#6 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
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#7 |
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Good Day
thanks a lot to every body for the collaboration from my side I may add some comments presently, I'm in Aleppo (Syria) and yesterday I met a Syrian friend, blacksmith, specialist in restoration of islamic blades, Rimon from Damascus for those knows him - the item is a "composit" 1) blade is oldest than the grip, may be XVII or XVIIIth 2) the scabbard, looks XIXth 3) the blade is without contest "JOAR" not "acid etch" 4) the "tip" may be have been added century ago, but at evidence, not recently the general impression is a weapon for "action" not for "display" and definitively not a "tourist trap" ![]() today, we are on way to Damascus, may be some discovert ?? and to leave some knifes to be refurbished and then we will reach Cairo - Egypt, in 4 or 5 days where any one should visit us, are welcome, I will be their guide inside the souks ![]() à + Dom |
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#8 | |
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#9 |
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It is the thrird such hilt of this construction that I have seen in the last 12 months and all appeared to have very nice age to them. All were Kards with scabbards that enveloped the hilt. I am sure I have images on file of one because I wanted to buy it for my personal collections. One scabbard was basic timber and old leather and the one I wanted was a scabbard of unusual form in that it was silver with Niello script on the reverse, I will try to find it as perhaps the script will offer a better indication of origins.
Gav |
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#10 | |
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Dom What does JOAR mean? I really do not think this is wootz and I not think this is laminated steel. Can you post a close up picture of the spine of the blade I am looking for signs of lamination along the back of the blade. Before I started collecting antiques I spent time at many Damascus steel forging seminars and this blade just does not look right to me? Last edited by Lew; 1st August 2010 at 02:14 PM. |
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#11 | |
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I meant efectiveness. This one looks (to me) more like a decorative addition ![]() |
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#12 |
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Here is something interesting concerning Joar.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Xgc...0steel&f=false |
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#13 | |
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You could be very right. As i mentioned before it isn't my field at all. I remembered seeing such tips before. ![]() |
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#14 | |
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I think Dom means 'Jauhar'. Nidhi |
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#15 | |
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Jauhar is described as this? All over India, the earliest dated 510 ce. Women sometimes suffered immolation before their husbands’ expected death in battle, in which case the burning was called jauhar |
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#16 |
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Hi Nidhi,
'Jauhar' seems to mean a form of ritual suicide...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jauhar I think the spelling may be Jawhar.... http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=uk Picture caption on the left hand side ....Or possibly Johar.... http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?p=681778 Regards David |
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#17 | |
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If I'm seeing the blade correctly it looks as if the pattern material is laid on a steel core . ![]() The pattern is way too random and complex to be a faked surface IMO . Last edited by Rick; 1st August 2010 at 05:40 PM. Reason: Another thought |
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#18 | |
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only the pronunciation of national alphabet make a difference e.i. "Joar" in French should be writing ; Djouar but we are not here to play with .. semantic ![]() when it's pronounced in Arabic the sound is near to - JO'AR - it's not with me, but in Paris, in the Saudi book concerning Islamic blades, very good explanation of "Joar" ... Djouar, "Jauar" "Jawhar" arrived in Cairo today ![]() à + Dom ps/ I get an other "Joar", but contemporary fabrication, purchased from a blacksmith (reputed) in Bukhara - Uzbekistan ... pics soon |
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#19 |
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Here is another kard from the same family. The handle is decorated with copper, messing, dark horn, walrus (?) ivory. The blade is pretty heavy and thick (6 mm). OAL 42 cm.
I have found the similar style dagger from the North Afghanistan in the collection of Kurt Gull (Hermann Rudolph "Der Turkmenenschmuck"). It is second from the top. Dom, maybe you can read the cartouche? |
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#20 |
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Hello Dom,
This is not wootz but I bet an etch will prove this to be several rows of twist core - nice catch, for sure! With the Afghan/Usbek? attribution it would be not too surprising to see these more often during the last years, I guess... Regards, Kai |
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#21 |
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I checked a Russian book by V.N. Popenko " Cold Steel. Encyclopedic Dictionary" ( ugly translation, but as close to the original as I could, for the sake of precision)
Here is a picture of an identical one, illustrated as a typical example of a Turkmen one. Second from the top. Hope it helps. |
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#22 | |
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unfortunately, the cartouche will remain (for me) illegible it's too much damaged to read something ![]() à + Dom |
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#23 | |
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AN ETCH ![]() ![]() ![]() this knife it's not an item of "Cour" either for parade or display, not luxurious at all ![]() it looks much more a weapon for honest warrior, no more how spent time (and money) by etching ... even the thickness of the blade (at back) ?? by engravings at the size of a hair the pictures have been took with a "macro numeric function" this increases wrongly the size of blade the real dimensions are 46 cm overall blade 29,50 cm only without heel 8cm and 4,50cm for the tip the blade is from 4,50cm to 3,50cm wide and, from 0,50 cm to 0,30 cm thickness your etches ![]() no offence, but your interesting suggestion seems a bit random, no? ![]() with my best regards à + Dom |
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#24 | |
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you are confirm that, where I found it, at Ispahan's - Central Asia, it was coming from not too far ![]() all the best à + Dom |
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#25 | |
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Hello Dom,
That's certainly a decent enough size for a knife. I guess you misunderstood me: I was not proposing that the pattern was "faked" by wax "artwork" and acid etching. IMHO this kard isn't made from wootz steel (I reckon that this is what "joar" specifically refers to in the Near/Middle East, isn't it?). However, I am positive that this is a really nice pattern-welded blade: it obviously has several rows of twistcore (often referred to as "turkish ribbon" but I don't know the Arabic name for this pattern). Quote:
I don't know wether you can find someone in Cairo who could give this blade an etch (and is knowlegdeable enough to trust with working on an antique blade). If not, I'm quite sure that you can do this yourself: Thoroughly clean the blade with hot water and a strong detergent (a hard toothbrush and toothpaste or kitchen cleaning powder/cream may help to get gunk out of crevices), wipe the still hot (and wet) blade with a lime fruit (or rather cut it several times to work both sides at once), rinse with plenty of water (I prefer hot diluted vinegar), flick fluid off the blade (when working outside) and wipe off remaining moisture with an well-oiled rag; thoroughly dry with a hair dryer. If the contrast is not strong enough when rinsing, try another cleaning and etching cycle or two... Before starting the whole process it's advisable to protect the hilt as much as feasible - a bit of wax and some sticky tape usually does the job. Regards, Kai |
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#26 |
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Kai, you're right. I was just going to post the same remark.
I have made a few contrast enhancements on the photo. One can clearly see : - twisted pattern - welding lines This is obviously a nice pattern welded blade. Would really like to see it re-etched ! |
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#27 |
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Any news, Dom?
This is how it will look like... ![]() Regards, Kai |
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#28 | |
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no to much time to do the manipulation, and now we are in Paris in Damascus, the blade has been cleaned, and I took 2 pic's - one for the surface - one for the thikness the specialist told me that, it was à nice "johar" ?? definitely, it's not the type of wootz what the picture from "Oriental-Arms" shown I bought from Boukhara (Uzbekistan) a knife, with the same wootz steel, it's a new made production, and I didn't be very impressed, just to come back with a "souvenir" I will prepare a post about it à + Dom |
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#29 |
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Might be a multi bar pattern welded damascus, certainly not wootz steel.
Seing the photos of the whole blade makes me wonder whether it might be some fake etched pattern. The details look real but the whole think doesn't feel right.Should definitly be cleaned end re-etched on a small sample part. |
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#30 | |
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to clarify for you, "the tip totally non functional" as you point of view if the tip who chocked you, has been added on my "Pesh Kabz" I found a "Wootz Kard" probably Circa 1800 with that type of tip, to pierce mailcoat ... tip not added, the blade was forged like that (beautiful wootz) ![]() ps/pictures issued from "Akaal Arms" catalog Best Regards à + Dom |
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