Pair of Moro Barong

carlitobrigante · 14th November 2010, 06:12 PM

Hi all

Another couple of recent aquisitions. Have wanted a nice pair of barong for a while now.

The first has a 15 1/2 inch blade. Described as 19th cent from the sulu region.

Very interested if someone could confirm what are the reliable indicators of age on these, and what features help date them. I believe the punto is silver, which does point to it being an older example.

The 2nd is abit more ornate and has a longer blade. Lovely intricate carvings. Terrific pattern and hardened edge clearly visible.

Unfortunately it hasnt been cared for particulary well, had a couple of red rust finger print marks on the blade i had to take care of, the blade is every so slightly loose in the hilt also. In my opinion this one is 20th century??

Any info any one can add as always is greatly appreciated.

carlitobrigante · 14th November 2010, 06:13 PM

more pics

Atlantia · 14th November 2010, 06:21 PM

Thats a cracking pair you've got there mate!

Rick · 14th November 2010, 06:23 PM

Cato had a theory that one could judge the era from the carving at the end of the handle .

Try to find a copy of Moro Swords by Robert Cato; also a few hours spent here going through the archives would, quite possibly, be even more rewarding .

Search terms :
Barong
Barung

carlitobrigante · 14th November 2010, 06:28 PM

thanks Rick, i have been looking through the treasure trove that is this sites archive, a wealth of info there that im still looking through. As for Catos book, ive been searching for a copy for a while now, but its a bugger to track down, and the one time i did it was priced out of my reach anyway :-(

thats very interesting if he thinks the hilt carvings can tell us a rough date. Aswell as that then im told the smaller blades tend to be older?? The use of silver in the fittings can mean its older. And am i right in saying aswell that the use of mother on pearl on the scabbard denotes its most likely 20th century?? Anything else anyone know of that helps date these???

If anyones got any scans of any pages i would be forever in your debt if you could share. Failing that if anyone could email what the book says about the handle carvings that would be fantastic also.

For some reason the pics ive attached have been put into wrong order, incase it isnt obvious the 3rd pic down, the blade belongs to the one with the ornate hilt, the 5th pic down is the blade of the older barong.

Battara · 14th November 2010, 07:24 PM

I feel that the first one is 1900 to early 20th century and the second one based on the hilt style is 1920s from the Samal people in around Sulu.

Nice laminations on both pieces and great early Samal carvings on the scabbard (the 2nd piece).

Rick · 15th November 2010, 12:03 AM

Yes, those carvings are quite excellent; the uniformity and symmetry of the individual forms are masterfully executed .

I almost thought it to be embossed at first glance !

Battara · 15th November 2010, 02:01 AM

Yes I agree Rick, great okir work at the top of the scabbard!

kai · 15th November 2010, 03:01 AM

Nice start for a barung collection!

Both blades may well be 19th c. IMHO and I'd be tempted to repolish and etch the longer one (or both). Just a hunch - I'm wondering wether with the Samal barung only the pommel might have been replaced during the 20th c.?

Both scabbards appear to be of good quality. Tips(feet) of both scabbards have been broken off (happens a lot); the Tausug(?) piece with another break on the other side of the throat.

Please post close-ups when you receive these!

Quote:

thats very interesting if he thinks the hilt carvings can tell us a rough date.

The hilt does seem to be the best indicator, especially since scabbards might get replaced/swapped. The rectangular beak seems to appear in some late 19th c. barung; the crest coming out from the curved hilt as a solid (often quite triangular) block rather than extending as a more-or-less floral ornament from the tip of the pommel is a 20th c. development.

Quote:

Aswell as that then im told the smaller blades tend to be older??

Size and shape of the blades do vary. Very large or very slender blades are likely to be less old (i.e. not antique) but there may be exceptions...

Quote:

The use of silver in the fittings can mean its older.

Silver (or at least silver plate) is pretty much standard for traditional barung regardless of age, even for plain warrior pieces. There are some antique examples with brass sleeves though.

Quote:

And am i right in saying aswell that the use of mother on pearl on the scabbard denotes its most likely 20th century??

Yes.

Quote:

Anything else anyone know of that helps date these???

Wear/patina, wood quality, carving quality, etc.

Quote:

For some reason the pics ive attached have been put into wrong order

You need to load them up seperately if you want to show them in any given order.

Regards,
Kai

Spunjer · 15th November 2010, 03:23 AM

Quote:

Both scabbards appear to be of good quality. Tips(feet) of both scabbards have been broken off (happens a lot); the Tausug(?) piece with another break on the other side of the throat.

Actually kai, the scabbard toe on the first one was designed to match the hilt, which is pungkol (limbless is it?) style, one that doesn't have a beak nor a crest. So i'm pretty sure the scabbard is original to the blade on this one.

Battara · 15th November 2010, 04:11 AM

I'm with Spunger on the first barong. A lot of fighting blades use this style of pommel.

However I agree with Kai on the second in that the pommel may well be a replacement, especially since it does not quite match the blade or scabbard. Some good observations.

VANDOO · 15th November 2010, 05:05 AM

NICE BARONGS

IN YOUR SECOND SET OF PICTURES THE TOP PICTURE HAS TWO WOVEN BANDS AROUND THE METAL GRIP. I RECENTLY SAW A SIMULAR EXAMPLE AND THE OWNER SAID IT WAS MADE OF WOVEN HUMAN HAIR LIKELY A FAMILY MEMBER OR ANCESTOR. HE SAID PERHAPS IT WAS A SORT OF TAISMAN OR CHARM FOR PROTECTION, SORT OF A WAY TO TAKE FAMILY OR ANCESTORS TO BATTLE WITH YOU. I HAVE NOT READ THIS ABOUT THE MORO BUT IT COULD COME FROM AN OLDER TRIBAL BELIEF. I HAVE HEARD SOMETHING SIMULAR REGARDING CERTIAN KERIS HANDLES IN BALI AND DID SEE THE HUMAN HAIR.
PLEASE TAKE A CLOSE LOOK AT THEM WITH GOOD MAGNIFICATION AND CHECK AND LET US KNOW WHAT YOU FIND. IF ANY OF YOU GUYS HAVE ANY INFO ON THIS PLEASE JUMP IN AS IT IS A NEW BIT OF INFO TO ME AT LEAST AND I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF ITS TRUE OR FALSE. THE ONE I SAW SEEMED TO HAVE A COATING OF SOMETHING TO SECURE AND PROTECT THE HAIR AND I HAD NO LOUPE WITH ME SO COULDN'T TELL MUCH BUT LOOKED VERY SIMULAR TO YOUR EXAMPLE. THANKS IN ADVANCE

Robert · 15th November 2010, 06:00 AM

Hello Vandoo, Are you referring to bands like these? These are on a barong in my collection but they seem to be coated with what feels to be some sort of wax or resin (as well as dust) which makes it hard to really tell what they are made of. Tomorrow I will try to put it under magnification and see if I can tell more about its composition.

Robert

carlitobrigante · 15th November 2010, 03:16 PM

great info guys, really appreciated. Will post some better pics when the first one pictured arrives, the other landed with me the other day.

VANDOO · 15th November 2010, 06:57 PM

YES BANDS LIKE THOSE.

WITH THAT MANY BANDS THOUGH THEY MAY NOT ALL BE HAIR OR IT MAY JUST HAVE SOME MIXED IN IF ITS THERE. THE ONE I SAW WAS SMALL AND UNIFORM IN COLOR AND MATERIAL.
I HAD ALWAYS JUST ASSUMED THE ONLY PURPOSE THESE FIBER BANDS SERVED WAS TO IMPROVE THE GRIP OR POSSIBLY COVER A SEAM. I FURTHER ASSUMED SOME KIND OF PLANT FIBER CORD WAS USED FOR THE PURPOSE. IT IS LIKELY IN MOST CASES OR PERHAPS IN MORE RECENT TIMES PLANT FIBER IS USED. BUT THE POSSIBILITY DOES EXHIST THAT WOVEN HUMAN HAIR MAY BE USED OR HAVE BEEN USED. SO ITS WORTH TAKEING A CLOSER LOOK AND SEEING IF SUCH EXAMPLES ARE IN OUR COLLECTIONS AND TO LOOK FOR WRITEN REFRENCES TO IT.
HUMAN HAIR DOES HAVE SIGNIFICANCE IN MOST HUMAN SOCIETY EVEN MY MOM HAD A SMALL TUFT OF MY HAIR FROM WHEN I WAS A BABY AS A KEEPSAKE. I MENTIONED THE KERIS HANDLES IN BALI AND THEY SAID THE HAIR USUALLY WAS SUPPLIED BY A FEMALE MEMBER OF THE FAMILY. I AM SURE THERE ARE OTHER EXAMPLES OF THIS TO BE FOUND. THE ONE I LOOKED AT WAS COVERED WITH SOMETHING BUT IT WAS VERY FINE FIBER OR HAIR NOT THICK LIKE ANIMAL HAIR OR MOST PLANT FIBERS.

Spunjer · 17th November 2010, 06:42 AM

indeed it might have some important significance, vandoo. not only on barungs, but i've seen these type of bands on my krises. but here's a more obvious hair-on-weapon example; on a budiak, awak-awak, a more personal type carried by an individual much like a barung or kris:

carlitobrigante · 17th November 2010, 06:09 PM

i was abit sceptical of the whole human hair idea, only because these woven bands are so common on these i thought it would have been mentioned somewhere before if they were indeed human hair.

After seeing Spunjers pic though i now think you might be onto something. If that hair on the budiak was twisted and lacquered it would look just like whats currently woven around the barong.

Very cool if true, awesome way of carrying your ancestors into battle.

On a side note i now have both Barongs in my possesion. Gave the older one a quick clean and a warm vinegar etch which has brought the pattern out more but kept it subtle which is how i like it.

Also on advice from a fellow forumite im going to try and get my library to hook me up with a copy of Catos book to study in library. Will try to get some decent scans / pics.

Maurice · 21st November 2010, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

indeed it might have some important significance, vandoo. not only on barungs, but i've seen these type of bands on my krises. but here's a more obvious hair-on-weapon example; on a budiak, awak-awak, a more personal type carried by an individual much like a barung or kris:

Great piece Ron!!!

Spunjer · 21st November 2010, 04:13 PM

Carlito, glad u got fast and trouble! I'm sure it found a great home.
maurice, yeah, definitely one of my pride and joy. The whole collar was definitely a lavor of love, braiding brass wires and strips like that...

carlitobrigante · 23rd November 2010, 07:42 PM

Ah i thought it likely the seller would be a member here. I love it mate, thanks for a hassle free transaction.

Maurice · 23rd November 2010, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

maurice, yeah, definitely one of my pride and joy. The whole collar was definitely a lavor of love, braiding brass wires and strips like that...

Ron, absolutely true.
If you ever want to let it go, you have my email!

Spunjer · 24th November 2010, 04:49 PM

anytime, carlito!
maurice, definitely... will keep you in mind

Battara · 25th November 2010, 12:33 AM

I was with Spunger when he got this wonderful piece and in handling it, it reminded me of Shaka Zulu's iklwa short spear.

14th November 2010, 06:12 PM	#1
carlitobrigante Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Solihull, UK Posts: 81	Pair of Moro Barong Hi all Another couple of recent aquisitions. Have wanted a nice pair of barong for a while now. The first has a 15 1/2 inch blade. Described as 19th cent from the sulu region. Very interested if someone could confirm what are the reliable indicators of age on these, and what features help date them. I believe the punto is silver, which does point to it being an older example. The 2nd is abit more ornate and has a longer blade. Lovely intricate carvings. Terrific pattern and hardened edge clearly visible. Unfortunately it hasnt been cared for particulary well, had a couple of red rust finger print marks on the blade i had to take care of, the blade is every so slightly loose in the hilt also. In my opinion this one is 20th century?? Any info any one can add as always is greatly appreciated. Attached Images Last edited by carlitobrigante; 15th November 2010 at 01:12 AM.

14th November 2010, 06:13 PM	#2
carlitobrigante Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Solihull, UK Posts: 81	more pics Attached Images

14th November 2010, 06:28 PM	#5
carlitobrigante Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Solihull, UK Posts: 81	thanks Rick, i have been looking through the treasure trove that is this sites archive, a wealth of info there that im still looking through. As for Catos book, ive been searching for a copy for a while now, but its a bugger to track down, and the one time i did it was priced out of my reach anyway :-( thats very interesting if he thinks the hilt carvings can tell us a rough date. Aswell as that then im told the smaller blades tend to be older?? The use of silver in the fittings can mean its older. And am i right in saying aswell that the use of mother on pearl on the scabbard denotes its most likely 20th century?? Anything else anyone know of that helps date these??? If anyones got any scans of any pages i would be forever in your debt if you could share. Failing that if anyone could email what the book says about the handle carvings that would be fantastic also. For some reason the pics ive attached have been put into wrong order, incase it isnt obvious the 3rd pic down, the blade belongs to the one with the ornate hilt, the 5th pic down is the blade of the older barong. Last edited by carlitobrigante; 14th November 2010 at 06:40 PM.

15th November 2010, 06:00 AM	#13
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Vandoo, Are you referring to bands like these? These are on a barong in my collection but they seem to be coated with what feels to be some sort of wax or resin (as well as dust) which makes it hard to really tell what they are made of. Tomorrow I will try to put it under magnification and see if I can tell more about its composition. Robert Attached Images

17th November 2010, 06:42 AM	#16
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	indeed it might have some important significance, vandoo. not only on barungs, but i've seen these type of bands on my krises. but here's a more obvious hair-on-weapon example; on a budiak, awak-awak, a more personal type carried by an individual much like a barung or kris: Attached Images

14th November 2010, 06:21 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Thats a cracking pair you've got there mate!

14th November 2010, 06:23 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Cato had a theory that one could judge the era from the carving at the end of the handle . Try to find a copy of Moro Swords by Robert Cato; also a few hours spent here going through the archives would, quite possibly, be even more rewarding . Search terms : Barong Barung

14th November 2010, 07:24 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I feel that the first one is 1900 to early 20th century and the second one based on the hilt style is 1920s from the Samal people in around Sulu. Nice laminations on both pieces and great early Samal carvings on the scabbard (the 2nd piece).

15th November 2010, 12:03 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Yes, those carvings are quite excellent; the uniformity and symmetry of the individual forms are masterfully executed . I almost thought it to be embossed at first glance !

15th November 2010, 02:01 AM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Yes I agree Rick, great okir work at the top of the scabbard!

15th November 2010, 04:11 AM	#11
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I'm with Spunger on the first barong. A lot of fighting blades use this style of pommel. However I agree with Kai on the second in that the pommel may well be a replacement, especially since it does not quite match the blade or scabbard. Some good observations.

15th November 2010, 05:05 AM	#12
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	NICE BARONGS IN YOUR SECOND SET OF PICTURES THE TOP PICTURE HAS TWO WOVEN BANDS AROUND THE METAL GRIP. I RECENTLY SAW A SIMULAR EXAMPLE AND THE OWNER SAID IT WAS MADE OF WOVEN HUMAN HAIR LIKELY A FAMILY MEMBER OR ANCESTOR. HE SAID PERHAPS IT WAS A SORT OF TAISMAN OR CHARM FOR PROTECTION, SORT OF A WAY TO TAKE FAMILY OR ANCESTORS TO BATTLE WITH YOU. I HAVE NOT READ THIS ABOUT THE MORO BUT IT COULD COME FROM AN OLDER TRIBAL BELIEF. I HAVE HEARD SOMETHING SIMULAR REGARDING CERTIAN KERIS HANDLES IN BALI AND DID SEE THE HUMAN HAIR. PLEASE TAKE A CLOSE LOOK AT THEM WITH GOOD MAGNIFICATION AND CHECK AND LET US KNOW WHAT YOU FIND. IF ANY OF YOU GUYS HAVE ANY INFO ON THIS PLEASE JUMP IN AS IT IS A NEW BIT OF INFO TO ME AT LEAST AND I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF ITS TRUE OR FALSE. THE ONE I SAW SEEMED TO HAVE A COATING OF SOMETHING TO SECURE AND PROTECT THE HAIR AND I HAD NO LOUPE WITH ME SO COULDN'T TELL MUCH BUT LOOKED VERY SIMULAR TO YOUR EXAMPLE. THANKS IN ADVANCE

15th November 2010, 03:16 PM	#14
carlitobrigante Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Solihull, UK Posts: 81	great info guys, really appreciated. Will post some better pics when the first one pictured arrives, the other landed with me the other day.

15th November 2010, 06:57 PM	#15
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	YES BANDS LIKE THOSE. WITH THAT MANY BANDS THOUGH THEY MAY NOT ALL BE HAIR OR IT MAY JUST HAVE SOME MIXED IN IF ITS THERE. THE ONE I SAW WAS SMALL AND UNIFORM IN COLOR AND MATERIAL. I HAD ALWAYS JUST ASSUMED THE ONLY PURPOSE THESE FIBER BANDS SERVED WAS TO IMPROVE THE GRIP OR POSSIBLY COVER A SEAM. I FURTHER ASSUMED SOME KIND OF PLANT FIBER CORD WAS USED FOR THE PURPOSE. IT IS LIKELY IN MOST CASES OR PERHAPS IN MORE RECENT TIMES PLANT FIBER IS USED. BUT THE POSSIBILITY DOES EXHIST THAT WOVEN HUMAN HAIR MAY BE USED OR HAVE BEEN USED. SO ITS WORTH TAKEING A CLOSER LOOK AND SEEING IF SUCH EXAMPLES ARE IN OUR COLLECTIONS AND TO LOOK FOR WRITEN REFRENCES TO IT. HUMAN HAIR DOES HAVE SIGNIFICANCE IN MOST HUMAN SOCIETY EVEN MY MOM HAD A SMALL TUFT OF MY HAIR FROM WHEN I WAS A BABY AS A KEEPSAKE. I MENTIONED THE KERIS HANDLES IN BALI AND THEY SAID THE HAIR USUALLY WAS SUPPLIED BY A FEMALE MEMBER OF THE FAMILY. I AM SURE THERE ARE OTHER EXAMPLES OF THIS TO BE FOUND. THE ONE I LOOKED AT WAS COVERED WITH SOMETHING BUT IT WAS VERY FINE FIBER OR HAIR NOT THICK LIKE ANIMAL HAIR OR MOST PLANT FIBERS.

17th November 2010, 06:09 PM	#17
carlitobrigante Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Solihull, UK Posts: 81	i was abit sceptical of the whole human hair idea, only because these woven bands are so common on these i thought it would have been mentioned somewhere before if they were indeed human hair. After seeing Spunjers pic though i now think you might be onto something. If that hair on the budiak was twisted and lacquered it would look just like whats currently woven around the barong. Very cool if true, awesome way of carrying your ancestors into battle. On a side note i now have both Barongs in my possesion. Gave the older one a quick clean and a warm vinegar etch which has brought the pattern out more but kept it subtle which is how i like it. Also on advice from a fellow forumite im going to try and get my library to hook me up with a copy of Catos book to study in library. Will try to get some decent scans / pics.

21st November 2010, 04:13 PM	#19
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Carlito, glad u got fast and trouble! I'm sure it found a great home. maurice, yeah, definitely one of my pride and joy. The whole collar was definitely a lavor of love, braiding brass wires and strips like that...

23rd November 2010, 07:42 PM	#20
carlitobrigante Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Solihull, UK Posts: 81	Ah i thought it likely the seller would be a member here. I love it mate, thanks for a hassle free transaction.

24th November 2010, 04:49 PM	#22
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	anytime, carlito! maurice, definitely... will keep you in mind

25th November 2010, 12:33 AM	#23
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I was with Spunger when he got this wonderful piece and in handling it, it reminded me of Shaka Zulu's iklwa short spear.