Question about markings

terry1956 · 5th November 2010, 10:28 AM

hi all, Can anyone please let me know what the 4 means above the heart shaped
east indian company marking.
what I have is a musket with the a heart shaped outline with the letters E I C split up inside the heart and the letter 4 on top the heart. I have no idea what the 4 stands for. any ideas. michael

Jim McDougall · 7th November 2010, 05:07 PM

Hi Michael,
The EIC marking on your weapon is the 'balemark' of the East India Co. which was actually used to mark thier goods transported in trade, as well as various uses as seen here on musket lockplates. The 4 seen atop the balemark, which was initially the heart with quartered sections holding the initials VEIC.
Contrary to popular belief, the V , often thought to mean 'venerable' , was actually a 'U' in the lettering of the times, and meant 'United'.

These balemarks, or merchants marks, were often derived from various applications of the cross and orb, the markings seen on many German blades (see the thread 'Early Makers Trademarks' in the top section of our forum).
From what I understand, the initial quartered heart had the cross above it.
Presumably these balemarks were not only to mark their goods, but the cross added imbued invocation for protection from the perils at sea and others.

In concerns that the cross might disturb those of other faiths, and in keeping with international trade diplomacy, the number 4, often a talismanically associated numeric with the sign for Jupiter, a lucky one, was adopted ostensibly to conveniently conceal the cross. This was a practice known from ancient times with Christians using symbols and allegories to identify themselves and place devotional marks. For the Jewish faith, the cabala offered the same type coded character.

In time, the 4 was ceased, and the character of the heart was changed as a flaunched (heraldic semicircles) design held the initials, though in many cases the 4 remained. In about 1806 the Company started using the rampant lion as a symbol until its demise in 1857, when the British government took over.

The attachments show the quartered EIC heart, the 'flaunched design', and the rampant kion.

Hope this helps. Post some pictures of the markings on your lock OK?

All the best,
Jim

*******finito************

Jim McDougall · 10th November 2010, 03:12 AM

Glad this was helpful, sure boosted traffic on the makers trademark thread

Jim McDougall · 11th November 2010, 01:15 AM

Michael,
Just curious, is the reason you are not showing photos of the marking because the weapon is for sale? If you need assistance with items you are selling I would be happy to assist you if you will contact me privately.
This was an interesting question and one I have spent some time studying, so it is a bit disappointing to not hear from you to carry the discussion further.

Best regards,
Jim

terry1956 · 12th November 2010, 02:25 PM

Hi the reason for not showing pics was that some tor rag broke into my car and had my camera away/ my little old camera just will not give very good pictures so whats the point. michael

Gavin Nugent · 12th November 2010, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by terry1956

Hi the reason for not showing pics was that some tor rag broke into my car and had my camera away/ my little old camera just will not give very good pictures so whats the point. michael

Great input and data there Jim ;-)

Jim McDougall · 13th November 2010, 12:34 AM

Thank you very much for acknowledging my post Gav.
Michael, sorry to hear about the loss of your camera. I will simply assume the data was still of some use.

All the best,
Jim

5th November 2010, 10:28 AM	#1
terry1956 Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: yeovil, somerset, uk Posts: 75	Question about markings hi all, Can anyone please let me know what the 4 means above the heart shaped east indian company marking. what I have is a musket with the a heart shaped outline with the letters E I C split up inside the heart and the letter 4 on top the heart. I have no idea what the 4 stands for. any ideas. michael

7th November 2010, 05:07 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Hi Michael, The EIC marking on your weapon is the 'balemark' of the East India Co. which was actually used to mark thier goods transported in trade, as well as various uses as seen here on musket lockplates. The 4 seen atop the balemark, which was initially the heart with quartered sections holding the initials VEIC. Contrary to popular belief, the V , often thought to mean 'venerable' , was actually a 'U' in the lettering of the times, and meant 'United'. These balemarks, or merchants marks, were often derived from various applications of the cross and orb, the markings seen on many German blades (see the thread 'Early Makers Trademarks' in the top section of our forum). From what I understand, the initial quartered heart had the cross above it. Presumably these balemarks were not only to mark their goods, but the cross added imbued invocation for protection from the perils at sea and others. In concerns that the cross might disturb those of other faiths, and in keeping with international trade diplomacy, the number 4, often a talismanically associated numeric with the sign for Jupiter, a lucky one, was adopted ostensibly to conveniently conceal the cross. This was a practice known from ancient times with Christians using symbols and allegories to identify themselves and place devotional marks. For the Jewish faith, the cabala offered the same type coded character. In time, the 4 was ceased, and the character of the heart was changed as a flaunched (heraldic semicircles) design held the initials, though in many cases the 4 remained. In about 1806 the Company started using the rampant lion as a symbol until its demise in 1857, when the British government took over. The attachments show the quartered EIC heart, the 'flaunched design', and the rampant kion. Hope this helps. Post some pictures of the markings on your lock OK? All the best, Jim *****finito********** Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 8th November 2010 at 10:10 PM.

12th November 2010, 02:25 PM	#5
terry1956 Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: yeovil, somerset, uk Posts: 75	in answer Hi the reason for not showing pics was that some tor rag broke into my car and had my camera away/ my little old camera just will not give very good pictures so whats the point. michael

10th November 2010, 03:12 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Glad this was helpful, sure boosted traffic on the makers trademark thread

11th November 2010, 01:15 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Michael, Just curious, is the reason you are not showing photos of the marking because the weapon is for sale? If you need assistance with items you are selling I would be happy to assist you if you will contact me privately. This was an interesting question and one I have spent some time studying, so it is a bit disappointing to not hear from you to carry the discussion further. Best regards, Jim

13th November 2010, 12:34 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Thank you very much for acknowledging my post Gav. Michael, sorry to hear about the loss of your camera. I will simply assume the data was still of some use. All the best, Jim