Rapier for coments

[fernando]

Would you agree this is a XVII century "Milanese fencing school" rapier?
The estoc blade has a diamond cross section and measures 107 centimetres (over 42") not counting the ricasso; with a width at forte of about 13 mm (1/2") and a thickness of 7 mm ( less than 5/16").
Single deep fuller in 1/5 of its length and point of balance 5 cms (2") from the guard.
Do i see a Pappenheimer touch in the guard little basket ... married with a swept hilt (lace) concept ?
But what do i know ?
I am not even at home to check on Norman's, to try and classify the pommel; a sturdy one, by the way!

Any coments on tis piece, Gentlemen?

.

[Matchlock]

Hi 'Nando,

My first thought on this interesting piece was that it might be a Pappenheimer rapier of ca. 1625-30, the pommel though obviously in excavated condition and of English provenance. My expert friend Ottmar has corrected me this afternoon; while confirming my opinion that the pommel is an inapt English find, he says the rest is a civilian rapier of ca. 1640, probably German, and the wire binding is a modern replacement.

Best,
Michael

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

I have seen a few similar spanish blades c 1650, but without the lasso guard and with straight quillons. The grip is obviously "new" (18th C?) .

A serviced heirloom? A reworked, "updated", ceremonial sword?

Italians did have a tendency to curve _both_ quillons toward the point.

Best

M

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi 'Nando,

My first thought on this interesting piece was that it might be a Pappenheimer rapier of ca. 1625-30, the pommel obviously in excavated condition and of English provenance. My expert friend Ottmar has corrected me this afternoon; while confirming the that the pommel is an inapt English find, he says the rest is a civilian rapier of ca. 1640, probably German, and the wire binding is a modern replacement.

Best,
Michael

[Jim McDougall]

I am very much with Michael as my first impressions were in accord with his, as everything I could find in Norman directed toward English origin for this elongated globular pommel. Obviously the pierced shells directed toward a pappenheimer as well. What was distracting me was that as Celtan has noted, the blade resembles rapier blades which were in use mid 17th and into the early 18th century by Spain. It has seemed to me, by the markings and inscriptions, that these were likely produced in Solingen for export.

The wire wrap is indeed replacement, but cannot say from photos exactly how old. I believe that Michael's very well informed friend is quite on target in the German assessment and period, and the sword well illustrates the very composite nature often seen in rapiers as they were reworked to maintain servicability and often changing fashions.

I think that the well established connections between Germany and England in the time period noted may account for the variation in components, as this was during the time when the contingent of Solingen swordsmiths went to England with the establishment of the Hounslow manufacturing center. This is not to suggest this is a Hounslow rapier, simply that a well established contact was in place between the two countries with regard to these commercial matters.


All best regards,
Jim

[cornelistromp]

Hi Fernando,

very nice rapier, this pommel is used frequently in England in the early 17thC but in my opinion and in this case it belongs to this rapier and the rapier is indeed German, ..............so is the pommel.
For comparison see a rapier in my collection signed by Clemens Meigen with the same type of pommel and the same hexagonal bulbs in the ring-guard and a similar fluted quillon block as the pommel .

best regards,

[fernando]

Thank you all, Gentlemen.
It is no surprise that the wire wrap may not be the original one, as so often happens. I don't think however that it is a modern work, but has probably taken place during its service life. It is a perfect job, with a rather intrincate wiring and embelished with two little turk heads.
Concerning the pommel; reading Norman and checking on type #36, mentions are made on this fluted variation to appear in Brithish illustrations. But checking on plates #49 and #51, we observe these types mounted on swept hilt swords of North European origin. Also in the Wallace Collection we find these pommels, for instance A 627 and A 630. Reading the respective notes, we notice that, the first is mounted on a Milanese swept hilt sword and the second also on a Italian example.
We know that the rigour of these things deserves a pinch of salt. It might be that, for experts, this pommel may look inapt in this sword, but i happen to like it and am glad that it is a period item, nobody stating the contrary ... plus its self speaking aged texture.
Oh, i see that, while i build this response, Cornelistromp has posted his opinion on this piece.
Let me digest what he has to say about it.

[Matchlock]

Hi 'Nando,

The pommel obviously is in excavated condition as compared to the rest of the iron parts.

Best,
Michl

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi 'Nando,

The pommel obviously is in excavated condition as compared to the rest of the iron parts.

Best,
Michl

Hi Michael,
the blade is (always) made out of other steel then the hilt.
therefor in many examples the blade is in a much better condition as the hilt.
the condition and pitting of the pommel matches the condition of the quillon block, but more important in this cases the quillon block has the same fluting as the pommel and thus belong together and can be seen as a pair.

best regards

[Jim McDougall]

In my earlier post I mentioned that there were of course distinct affiliations between Germany and England in the 17th century, and the Hounslow factory was begun with German swordsmiths brought there by invitation by the English king about the time of the English Civil Wars.

I agree that the metal used in various components would result in different types and stages of corrosion and wear. As noted, the rewrapping and refurbishing of hilts often accounts for the somewhat composite nature of rapiers typically found. These swords were often reworked as they, like many weapons, often had service life which lasted beyond a single generation.

Once again returning to the multinational nature of these components, the shells in the guard, which are as agree of pappenheimer style, in the pierced openwork seem to reflect a quatrefoil shape. While obviously an architectural feature often used widely, it brings to mind ecclesiastical style, and reminds me of that in many English churches.

I do hope this suggestion might be considered as I would like to know if the shape of these designs might be relevenant in possible further English origin for this rapier.

Best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

Thank you Gentlemen for keeping this discussion going on.
Interesting to read your honest, though diverse, currents of opinion.

Thanks a lot Cornelis, for your input and for the pictures of your beautiful rapier by Clemens. There realy are close similarities between your example and mine.
I am rather intrigued that, being the seller of my sword a German, with a significant knowledge of antique weapons, did not hesitate to classify it as an estoc bladed rapier of the Milanese fencing school.
However reading your considerations supported by your Clemens example, i am about to digest the possibility of my piece being also German.

Herewith a couple close up pictures of the grip wire wrapping, to help try and discern its possible age.

.

[cornelistromp]

Hi Fernando,

herewith some pictures that will help you to digest the matter of the pommel
and also helps me to confirm the German origin.

best regards

[fernando]

Hi Cornelis,
No kidding ... you have just convinced me; this now becoming easy to digest .
Some of the details are extremely familiar.
What references have you on this example; does it belong to your collection?
You know ... it even looks like the quillons in mine were also originaly straight, having been bent at a certain stage, to please some later owner's tastes.
What do you say of this?

[cornelistromp]

Hi Fernando,

you are welcome.
The Meigen rapier is still in my possession, it has never been separated and has a absolute "sleeper" mint condition and the original grip.
The other rapier is from a trader/collector I know, at the moment I am not into "the rapier" anymore, well I still love to see and handle them but concentrate on earlier swords now, the rusty ones.
The shape of quillons is a matter of personal taste and of course of the type of the fighting school and personal fighting skills.
In Holland the long straight guillons were very popular in the 17thC, actually your type was also very popular in Holland in the first 30 years of the 17thC.
I have seen this sword on some schutter-painting,if I remember where I will post it.

CF. the late 16thC German Rapier with guillons like yours in the plan of the blade for catching/holding your opponents rapier!

best,

[fernando]

Thanks once more, Cornelis, for the new precious info

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

... I have seen this sword on some schutter-painting,if I remember where I will post it....

Yes, please do; i would love to see it and save it together with my example pictures and data.

Met vriendelijke groeten

[Dmitry]

I told you it was singing to me!

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

I told you it was singing to me!

[Jim McDougall]

Well it sounded like a good possibility.

[Matchlock]

It definitely does, Cornelis and Jim,

The fact remains though that the pommel is in excavated condition and could never have originally belonged.

Best,
m

[cornelistromp]

That exactly the right size and type of pommel is found is way too coincidental.
no, my vote goes to ORIGINAL.
the color of the metal and the pitting is consistent with other parts of this rapier.
Because mostly the pommel is touched over the time by hands here one sees more severe pitting.

Best,

[celtan]

Very true. Hilts _and pommels_ are often replaced because of hand-sweat's salinity. And due to the different steel qualities, swords retrieved from churches or tombs often needed to have both replaced.
In cold, dry climates, _oiled_ blades kept protected within leathern scabbards often survived for long periods (even if the scabbard did not) , while he exposed hilts/pommels suffered direly.
IIRC, we had an interesting thread on that years ago, didn't we Jim?
To me, the pommel looks good, but it might be a replacement. How easy was it to replace a pommel?
Nando, is the sword well balanced? If its not, there we have the answer.
Best
M

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

The color of the metal and the pitting is consistent with other parts of this rapier.
Because mostly the pommel is touched over the time by hands here one sees more severe pitting.

This kind of deep of deep und irregular, but not crisp pitting is typical of excavated finds that were heavily grinded with sandpaper in order took better. The main part of the pommel is almost never touched by the hand, just the grip binding and hilt are. The homogenuous surface color seems to be a good repatination probably using olive or crude linseed oil and a yellowish lacquer. It can be achieved within hours.

In contrast, the surfaces of the blade and pommel of the piece you posted are obviously homogenuous and belong.

Best,
Michael

[celtan]

Hi M,

I follow your reasoning, but I differ somewhat. I believe that the part of the sword that is mostly in contact with the hand is precisely the pommel, specially if it is as big as this one is.

I speak from personal experience, I often carry swords around, and to control their movement while walking I usually keep them held by the pommel. Try it yourself.

: )

Best

M

Originally Posted by Matchlock

This kind of deep of deep und irregular, but not crisp pitting is typical of excavated finds that were heavily grinded with sandpaper in order took better. The main part of the pommel is almost never touched by the hand, just the grip binding and hilt are. The homogenuous surface color seems to be a good repatination probably using olive or crude linseed oil and a yellowish lacquer. It can be achieved within hours.

In contrast, the surfaces of the blade and pommel of the piece you posted are obviously homogenuous and belong.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi Manuel,

Agreed - I cannot compete with your actual experience in handling swords.

Besides my collection of earliest arsenal firearms and accouterments, I can only boast on possessing three swords: two extremely rare early 16th century Italian Landsknecht sabers, one of whom I posted here in a thread on its own, and a very fine ca. 1600 Munich Stantler rapier in as new original condition, which I will post soon.

That's why, in discussing edged weapons, I generally rely on my experienced friend Ottmar.

Thank you and best,
Michael

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

This kind of deep of deep und irregular, but not crisp pitting is typical of excavated finds that were heavily grinded with sandpaper in order took better. The main part of the pommel is almost never touched by the hand, just the grip binding and hilt are. The homogenuous surface color seems to be a good repatination probably using olive or crude linseed oil and a yellowish lacquer. It can be achieved within hours.

Not necessarily so.
Such judgement may well be most influenced by the quality of pictures, which in many cases tend to distort the actual colour of objects.
These were taken by night, with flash, so achievement is not close from real .
Looking at the lower close up picture in my post #10, we observe a more stabilized situation ... though yet not perfect.

[Matchlock]

OK, 'Nando,

I see and accept your argument. Of course I can only judge by what I think I can interpret from the images.

Best,
Michl

[fernando]

Hi Manolete,

Originally Posted by celtan

... Hilts and pommels_are often replaced because of hand-sweat's salinity. And due to the different steel qualities, swords retrieved from churches or tombs often needed to have both replaced...

A reason you didn't mention is the decision to substitute (not replace) the pommel in order to alter the sword's center of balance. Suppose the owner was a fencer and wished to have a different (better) handling controll?
Or suppose this pommel was a family heirloom and he was honoured to mount it in his sword?
But i am only digressing ... for reasons connected with this pommel being the discussion "battle horse" or, in other words, the "pommel of the question"

Originally Posted by celtan

...To me, the pommel looks good, but it might be a replacement. How easy was it to replace a pommel?
Nando, is the sword well balanced? If its not, there we have the answer...

I am not the right person to tell you that; besides not being a fencer, i am a forced left hander. But yes, i find it quite maneuvrable, with such a long blade and the center of balance rather close from the guard. Mind you, the hilt complex (ricasso+grip+pommel) is quite lengthy, with its 20 cms (8").

[fernando]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

That exactly the right size and type of pommel is found is way too coincidental.
no, my vote goes to ORIGINAL.
the color of the metal and the pitting is consistent with other parts of this rapier.
Because mostly the pommel is touched over the time by hands here one sees more severe pitting.

Best,

Very well put and shown, Cornelis.

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

That exactly the right size and type of pommel is found is way too coincidental.

Best,

There are hundreds of detached original pommels in various conditions on the market every year, and almost all of them are purchased by dealers and forgers. Can you image the reason?

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

There are hundreds of detached original pommels in various conditions on the market every year, and almost all of them are purchased by dealers and forgers. Can you image the reason?

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

of course I know and see a lot of replaced pommels, especially on medieval swords. recently I noticed a cast one at a London auction house which gave
some discussion just before the sale.

I must admit it is very amusing to see that you changed your mind on this pommel from an inapt English ground find to "maybe" belonging to this piece

Kind regards from Holland

[Matchlock]

Hi Cornelis,

Please remember we all had to rely on photos, and almost anything is possible ...

Though I usually have a well based opinion at the point of posting, I try not to be too dogmatic.

Good night and be well,
Michael