Marks in European sword

Jim McDougall · 29th October 2010, 06:01 PM

Well noted Ron. This does seem a bit unwieldy as this blade is of the type used on earlier stirrup hilt type sabres. Norman, you are exactly right, the fullered spear point blade was the type for the regulation M1821 as the idea was to accomplish a cut and thrust type sabre. The pipeback was present on the infantry officers sabres of 1822 until changed as Ron noted.

Also, Norman you have reminded me of another key feature, the regulation M1821 had ears on the grip as well as the lined pommel cap and notable capstan. This example has neither and more of a beaklike pommel . I am beginning to think this might be one of the later colonial style three bar hilts produced for Indian cavalry units, and this early blade of trade style was somehow joined with it. It does seem quite possible that this might have been in one of the native Indian cavalry units latter 19th century and even into the early 20th.

Naturally that proposal seems way out in left field, but while these type blades seen unwieldy in some ways, they were very much favored by Indian troopers. I know that the M1796 blade was produced by English contractors for Indian cavalry use throughout the 19th century, many of these blades did not carry the usual acceptance stamps of India ordnance depots. It is quite feasible that one of these trade blades, though from Germany may have ended up there through any number of circumstances.
For some reason, the WH seems very familiar, and seems like German placed stamps at forte.
These German triple fuller blades were produced in Solingen as intended for cutlass blades from the beginning of the 18th century into the mid 19th century. Gilkerson notes (p.88), that "...significant but unknown numbers were produced for the East and West Indian markets. Most are seen with the mystical symbols of sun, moon and stars".
All the best,
Jim

Ron Anderson · 29th October 2010, 11:16 PM

Okay, Norman, thanks for the correction.

It occurred to me this morning that a pipeback is an odd choice for a cavalry sword. Nonetheless some of the early 181 3-bar hilt swords were certainly pipeback. I was the happy owner of one of them a few years ago.

The blades of these did resemble the 1822 pattern blade, if I recall correctly.

Norman McCormick · 29th October 2010, 11:35 PM

Hi Ron,
A good number of earlier 1821 L.C. officers swords had pipeback blades.
Regards,
Norman.

29th October 2010, 06:01 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,898	Well noted Ron. This does seem a bit unwieldy as this blade is of the type used on earlier stirrup hilt type sabres. Norman, you are exactly right, the fullered spear point blade was the type for the regulation M1821 as the idea was to accomplish a cut and thrust type sabre. The pipeback was present on the infantry officers sabres of 1822 until changed as Ron noted. Also, Norman you have reminded me of another key feature, the regulation M1821 had ears on the grip as well as the lined pommel cap and notable capstan. This example has neither and more of a beaklike pommel . I am beginning to think this might be one of the later colonial style three bar hilts produced for Indian cavalry units, and this early blade of trade style was somehow joined with it. It does seem quite possible that this might have been in one of the native Indian cavalry units latter 19th century and even into the early 20th. Naturally that proposal seems way out in left field, but while these type blades seen unwieldy in some ways, they were very much favored by Indian troopers. I know that the M1796 blade was produced by English contractors for Indian cavalry use throughout the 19th century, many of these blades did not carry the usual acceptance stamps of India ordnance depots. It is quite feasible that one of these trade blades, though from Germany may have ended up there through any number of circumstances. For some reason, the WH seems very familiar, and seems like German placed stamps at forte. These German triple fuller blades were produced in Solingen as intended for cutlass blades from the beginning of the 18th century into the mid 19th century. Gilkerson notes (p.88), that "...significant but unknown numbers were produced for the East and West Indian markets. Most are seen with the mystical symbols of sun, moon and stars". All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 29th October 2010 at 06:39 PM. Reason: add detail

29th October 2010, 11:16 PM	#2
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Okay, Norman, thanks for the correction. It occurred to me this morning that a pipeback is an odd choice for a cavalry sword. Nonetheless some of the early 181 3-bar hilt swords were certainly pipeback. I was the happy owner of one of them a few years ago. The blades of these did resemble the 1822 pattern blade, if I recall correctly.

29th October 2010, 11:35 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,593	Hi Ron, A good number of earlier 1821 L.C. officers swords had pipeback blades. Regards, Norman.