Ring dagger with round brass quillon

Cesare · 24th October 2010, 07:01 PM

Hello everyone
know you think oabout this dagger of the 14th century?
If it were not an artifact of excavation, it would be great.

Here are the features
Overall length 437 mm

Blade
- Triangular, double edge, diamond-shaped with concave sides
Length 268 mm
Max width 40.6 mm
Marks A little flower with seven petals.

Hilt
Quillon
Brass ring, adorned with four stylized dolphins.
Diameter 54.5 mm
Thickness 0.7 mm
Central opening
- Width 44.3 mm
- Height 11.3 mm
Grip
Has a strip of decorated brass along the external edge.
The words “AMOR” (Love) and “AMR” (Love, probably a grammar mistake) are joined with a chain.
- Grip length 113 mm
- Max. thickness 10.2 mm

Pommel (ring)
- Width 32 mm
- Height 36.5 mm

Could you help me for mark identificatn? It s'nt in my data-base

Dear friends, have you noticed?
...... Love all around the world (sorry, the pommel) .....
...... Put some flowers in the guns (sorry, on blades) ...

Hippies were also in the 14th century!

With simpaty

Cesare

Matchlock · 24th October 2010, 07:16 PM

Hi Cesare,

Now this an unusually fine sample of an Italian or South German 15th or early 16th c. knightly ring dagger worth to enter even the most renowned museum!

As you pointed out, the Latin word amor is spelt in two variations, the second of course being not a grammar but a spelling 'mistake'. I put the word mistake in quote as most craftsmen in those periods of time were neither capable of reading nor writing, and inscriptions like this - as well as on sword blades - had merely become a decorative element in late Gothis script.
Also the use of flower ornaments has nothing to do with early hippie style

but was just a characteristic decorative element.

Concerning the bladesmith's mark, please cf. my notes on a similar mark on one of your lugged spear heads.

Best,
Michael

Jim McDougall · 24th October 2010, 08:48 PM

Good analogy there Cesare on the 'love children' for those of us who remember the blur of the 60s purple haze and all

On the sinister side, I wonder if possibly that this dagger may be a misericorde, and the symbolism may reflect a different, yet benovolent, aspect of Christian love, that of mercy.
While the fish is of course well known as a Christian symbol, the dolphin is often perceived in Christian art as a guide to lead souls into paradise and represents resurrection and salvation.

In the codes of chivalry, the dispatch of the fallen was not necessarily an act of vengeance or hatred, and carrying out this naturally unpleasant, although merciful act certainly must have weighed heavily on the conscience of the man faced with this duty.

On the other hand, the dagger may well be as it seems, and with the ring, being intended for more amorous and far more pleasant pursuits. Maybe it is a wedding dagger. The dolphins representation of love and benevolence is widely interpreted.

Michael, would you mind restating notes on the mark?

best regards,
Jim

Matchlock · 25th October 2010, 02:45 PM

Michael, would you mind restating notes on the mark?

best regards,
Jim[/QUOTE]

Hi Ceare and Jim,

Here is my opinion on the mark once again:

The mark obviously was deeply struck, so it has to be the smith's mark struck in the yellow read iron. The star, gear or flowerhead shaped symbol is characteristic of literally hundreds of plain smiths' marks from the early medieval times to at least the 17th century and can be found on arrow heads, matchlock mechanisms and blacksmiths' tongs. Any closer identification would, in my opinion, be just illusionary.

Best,
Michael

24th October 2010, 07:01 PM	#1
Cesare Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 22	Ring dagger with round brass quillon Hello everyone know you think oabout this dagger of the 14th century? If it were not an artifact of excavation, it would be great. Here are the features Overall length 437 mm Blade - Triangular, double edge, diamond-shaped with concave sides Length 268 mm Max width 40.6 mm Marks A little flower with seven petals. Hilt Quillon Brass ring, adorned with four stylized dolphins. Diameter 54.5 mm Thickness 0.7 mm Central opening - Width 44.3 mm - Height 11.3 mm Grip Has a strip of decorated brass along the external edge. The words “AMOR” (Love) and “AMR” (Love, probably a grammar mistake) are joined with a chain. - Grip length 113 mm - Max. thickness 10.2 mm Pommel (ring) - Width 32 mm - Height 36.5 mm Could you help me for mark identificatn? It s'nt in my data-base Dear friends, have you noticed? ...... Love all around the world (sorry, the pommel) ..... ...... Put some flowers in the guns (sorry, on blades) ... Hippies were also in the 14th century! With simpaty Cesare Attached Images

24th October 2010, 07:16 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Cesare, Now this an unusually fine sample of an Italian or South German 15th or early 16th c. knightly ring dagger worth to enter even the most renowned museum! As you pointed out, the Latin word amor is spelt in two variations, the second of course being not a grammar but a spelling 'mistake'. I put the word mistake in quote as most craftsmen in those periods of time were neither capable of reading nor writing, and inscriptions like this - as well as on sword blades - had merely become a decorative element in late Gothis script. Also the use of flower ornaments has nothing to do with early hippie style but was just a characteristic decorative element. Concerning the bladesmith's mark, please cf. my notes on a similar mark on one of your lugged spear heads. Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 25th October 2010 at 02:42 PM.

24th October 2010, 08:48 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Good analogy there Cesare on the 'love children' for those of us who remember the blur of the 60s purple haze and all On the sinister side, I wonder if possibly that this dagger may be a misericorde, and the symbolism may reflect a different, yet benovolent, aspect of Christian love, that of mercy. While the fish is of course well known as a Christian symbol, the dolphin is often perceived in Christian art as a guide to lead souls into paradise and represents resurrection and salvation. In the codes of chivalry, the dispatch of the fallen was not necessarily an act of vengeance or hatred, and carrying out this naturally unpleasant, although merciful act certainly must have weighed heavily on the conscience of the man faced with this duty. On the other hand, the dagger may well be as it seems, and with the ring, being intended for more amorous and far more pleasant pursuits. Maybe it is a wedding dagger. The dolphins representation of love and benevolence is widely interpreted. Michael, would you mind restating notes on the mark? best regards, Jim

25th October 2010, 02:45 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Michael, would you mind restating notes on the mark? best regards, Jim[/QUOTE] Hi Ceare and Jim, Here is my opinion on the mark once again: The mark obviously was deeply struck, so it has to be the smith's mark struck in the yellow read iron. The star, gear or flowerhead shaped symbol is characteristic of literally hundreds of plain smiths' marks from the early medieval times to at least the 17th century and can be found on arrow heads, matchlock mechanisms and blacksmiths' tongs. Any closer identification would, in my opinion, be just illusionary. Best, Michael