hidden room 2 - captured arms

B.I · 17th June 2005, 02:29 AM

another hidden room in venice. not a single weapon mentioned in any guide, but i was steered their by a friend. as with everything else, not much is in english and cameras are forbidden.
i never got round to chasing this up, but i am assuming that with the quantity of early turkish weapons, the may have all been taken at the wars against the ottoman emire in the 16thC. this is the civic museum, ie the museum that displays artifact and history of the town, and so am inclined to think that these weapons were not, nor ever were a 'collection'.
the turkish armour and weapons are all within this time period. i wonder if all the other weapons are as well.
the yataghans and kris may reveal clues (not my field so please offer opinions)
if these pieces could possibly be of the period, then the presence of this collection would make sense.
funny what you can stumble across in the strangest of places. i had no idea what to expect when i went there, just having been told there were some 'interesting' weapons! my passion for ottoman armour was well and truly fed. the cane shields are exceptionally rare and to find this many outside the topkapi was breathtaking.

B.I · 17th June 2005, 02:32 AM

more

B.I · 17th June 2005, 02:32 AM

sorry andrew. not a dha in sight

ariel · 17th June 2005, 03:38 AM

Somehow, I know where the discussion is going to be headed: A KRIS!

Andrew · 17th June 2005, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

sorry andrew. not a dha in sight

lol. That's okay, Brian. Not every museum is perfect.

Thanks for sharing these.

Lew · 17th June 2005, 05:23 AM

Hi Guys

I find it interesting that there are Stars of David on Islamic armor? Can anyone explain?

Lew

Berkley · 17th June 2005, 05:41 AM

The hexagram in Islamic art is not referrred to as the Star of David but rather as the Khatam Suleiman, or King Solomon's Seal. Click on the third picture from the bottom in the link to see its use as an illustration in a Muslim book of prayers and excerpts from the Quran c. 1761

Rather · 17th June 2005, 08:56 AM

Thank you for sharing these great pictures!

Has anybody been to the Ca’ Pesaro in Venice? A great Museum for Oriental Art. (Oriental is a little bit misleading in this case) They have an excellent collection of Japanese arms and armour, some Chinese pieces of art and a few Indonesian Weapons.

A virtual visit is possible, page is in Italian, but as it is a lovely language, one should not worry about it.

http://www.artive.arti.beniculturali...Orientale.html

B.I · 17th June 2005, 09:46 AM

hi rather,
my original 'hidden room' post was from the Ca’ Pesaro.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=137
a stunning collection and well worth the visit.

Aqtai · 17th June 2005, 01:38 PM

Thanks BI for sharing these beautiful pictures with us. Thank you especially for photographing the bowcase, a piece of Islamic warriors equipment that is often overlooked.

Have you got any more photos of that bizzare helmet, the one that is a cross between a shishak and kulah khud? I don't think I have ever seen anything like that before. You wouldn't happen to know if it was made that way, or is it a kulah khud that has been "Ottomanified"?

B.I · 17th June 2005, 02:07 PM

hi aqtai,
well observed in pointing out the helmet, as it is a strange concoction. it isnt a kulah khud and is pure ottoman, with slight changes. this is all theory, as it was sometime ago that i saw the collection, but the decoration and style of the whole helmet is ottoman and typical of a type, as is the decoration and the guilding.
the difference is the mail. these helmets didnt normally carry mail and instead had 2 ear flaps and a rear neck piece held on by leather, rivetted on to the bowl with copper rivets.
the peak and nasal bar were rivetted straight onto the bowl as well, again with copper.
the ear flaps and peak on this helmet are en-suite, and so can happily assume they were part of this helmet.
the most important point, is that they were normally deeper in bowl, and this fact may explain the current construction. my guess, would be that the helmet suffered damage at some time and was 'shortened'. the bowl was then pierced to hold the chainmail, and the peak and ear pieces were then attached. as it seems an unlikely design for use, there is a chance this may have happened after its working life, for aesthetic reasons only (otherwise you would have the peak bouncing around on your face)
if you follow the decoration around the rim, you see it almost ends abruptly. also, the guilding is lost around these holes and the guilding and decoration would have been originally applied after the construction was completed.
ottoman helmets carrying mail where done straight onto the helmet at a later design. helmets that carried mail of this period (most notably the 'turban' helmets) had fittings attached, into which a wire was threaded which held the chainmail.
still a great piece though!

Aqtai · 17th June 2005, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

hi aqtai,
i'm a little confused of which helmet you mean. the ottoman or the tarter-esque helmet?

Sorry. the first helmet. It has a hemispherical bowl with a mail fringe and has a Shishak-style peak, cheek plates, neck-guard and nasal bar attached to the mail. That 's what I meant by a cross between a kulah khud and shishak.

I don't recall ever seeing an Ottoman helmet like that before.

B.I · 17th June 2005, 02:37 PM

hi aqtai,
sorry, i worked out which helmet you meant and edited my question. now it sounds like your repeating yourself for no reason, and i'm clairvoyant :-)

Aqtai · 17th June 2005, 03:13 PM

Thanks for the reply B.I. It is a bizarre piece. I suppose it could be a parade helmet, as you pointed out the peak would be fairly unstable. I still cannot help wondering why such an impractical helmet?

With regards to my 1st impression, I believe the Ottomans were in the habit of modifying captured helmets. If I remember rightly, the Royal Armouries (I've not been there since they moved it to Leeds) had a very tall Persian helmet which was "Ottomanified" by having a peak added on to it, and I wondered if the same thing had happened here.

H.R. Robinson's Oriental Armour has a line drawing of a slightly more conventional shishak with the peak suspended by hinges rather than usual six rivets attaching it to the brow. Another design which I thought was highly impractical.

This helmet does clear up one thing for me. I have often wondered if the lower edge of the mail brow piece of a kulah khud stopped above the eyes or if it was in front the eyes. Obviously with this particular helmet, if the mail was in front of the eyes the wearer would not be able to see.

B.I · 17th June 2005, 03:24 PM

hi aqtai,
the ottomans did indeed reuse helmets from other cultures, and i've seen some strange assemblages, with burgonets with ottoman lamellar neckguards.
this piece, however is pure ottoman. also, i still hold to my theory, and so i feel it doesnt help with your khud/vision question, as it may nave been put together after its working life, where the vision wasnt important.
also, remember 90% of the khuds you see today are made for decoration, and never for use and so they wont help. a 17thC khud is heavier and larger than the 19thC bazaar pieces.
your answer, may be in mail and mail'plate helmets of india, which covered the face completely. these, by theri construction and date would have been made for use, and so i feel the mail curtain didnt obstruct the vision, or if it did, it was deemed acceptable.
also note, these earlier helmets were composed of riveted mail and so the links were thicker than the 19thC butted links you see now. even so, it was deemed a necessary obstruction.
i will try and find an image of what the ottoman helmet should have looked like.

B.I · 17th June 2005, 06:37 PM

this given an idea of its original form.

Aqtai · 17th June 2005, 07:34 PM

Thanks Brian. Very nice helmet. I see why you thinnk the one in Venice may have originally looked like this.

I have seen a picture of a very similar Mamluk helmet in the Topkapi Museum attributed to Khayrbek, the last Mamluk governor of Aleppo, the one who betrayed the mamluks to the Ottomans and was rewarded by being made Ottoman governor of Egypt after the Ottoman conquest.

Edit: I have just found a picture of that helmet, please excuse the quality, it's a bad photocopy of a very old book. H. R. Robinson has pictures of the same two helmets in his book, he calls this rounded style a muwa'ama (A very Arabic sounding name) and attributes it to Khayrbek.

wolviex · 17th June 2005, 08:30 PM

Thank you for these pictures Brian. If you are travelling through the Europe remember Krakow - just let me know if you'll be passing by, and I'll open my doors for you

Just a few reflections. Watching these beautiful Turkish armament I have a strange feeling, because all of these objects are very familiar to me. Most of them were used in Poland as usual armament, parade armament and of course as the war-trophies. Contacts amongst Poland and Turkey were very wide during 16th-18th centuries, and those who are lucky to have "War and Peace" catalogue, know very well what I'm talking about. Anyway, many of the objects like these are well represented in Polish museums as well. But what astonished me, is the amount of kalkan-shields. Great collection, uncomparable with anything in Poland.

Thank you one more time!

B.I · 17th June 2005, 08:49 PM

hi michal,
i must admit, i had thought of you when i created this post and was waiting for you to notice :-)
yes, it was the shields that stunned me as well, as its the sheer amount (4 long displays) of such a rare item. and the condition is wonderful.
dont worry, i have the city guide you kindly sent me and will start dropping hints to my girlfriend when appropriate. it goes without saying, that the doors will be jammed open should you make it to london. the helmet aqtai and i were discussing left its make on both polish and hungarian design, and it seems that both the mamluks and ottomans were the leaders of fashion for many years.
the 'war and peace' exhibition was one of real excellence and shows the quality and importance of the pieces in poland. you will be interested to konw that there will be an exhibition in paris, planned for next year which will be on early islamic arms, with a large amount of important turkish pieces. i cant offer any more details as yet, as the collection is privately owned but it will have a full catalogue, written by one of the leading authorities on islamic arms. will definately post more when i can, with enough notice for people to plan their holidays to suit :-)
aqtai, i have attached more images of the helmet type, which helps to bolster my theory about its altered state.
however, all good theories have a way of falling flat on its face, and i have included a line drawing, which show the peak section attached by a linkage system, which means its free-moving, just like the venice piece.
so, there is an option that the helmet was created like this, but i still feel it doesnt seem right.

wolviex · 17th June 2005, 09:59 PM

Brian: as far as I know, there will also in Paris great Persian exhibition in 2007. There is a chance there will be objects from my museum as well, because I was asked for some of them.

If you mentioned the influence of Turkish helmets on Hungarian and Polish ones, it is worth of mentione, that those were of the conical shape. Some of them were made as a tournament or for parade purposes in Germany as well, just like one from my museum, made in Nurnberg. And by the way - Polish classical hussar zischagge is very similiar to those Turkish helmets presented on your pictures

. But this is off-topic.

Aqtai · 17th June 2005, 10:12 PM

Thanks for those pics Brian. I see you found the helmet i was talking about.

That exhibition on Early Islamic armour in Paris sounds fascinating, however I can't see my wife agrreing to me disappearing to paris for a weekend. I never even got to see the Turks! exhibition at the RA, and that was only in london.

Wolviex, there is no doubt that the Ottomans did have a strong influence on Polish, Hungarian and Russian armour. I have noticed that The decoration on Polish shishaks/chichaks/zischagges however is more European and quite distinct from the Turkish helmets.

Rivkin · 17th June 2005, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aqtai

Thanks Brian. Very nice helmet. I see why you thinnk the one in Venice may have originally looked like this.

I have seen a picture of a very similar Mamluk helmet in the Topkapi Museum attributed to Khayrbek, the last Mamluk governor of Aleppo, the one who betrayed the mamluks to the Ottomans and was rewarded by being made Ottoman governor of Egypt after the Ottoman conquest.

I don't know nothing about non-caucasian arms, so my input would not be very valuable, but I've seen a georgian helmet, supposedly early XVIII century, just like the one in the museum. Unfortunately I don't remeber where I've seen it.

Concerning Khayrbek, he was a Georgian and a lot of people (inluding Ibn-Iyas) suspected that he simply disliked Circassians, therefore choosing Ottomans over them.

wolviex · 17th June 2005, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aqtai

Wolviex, there is no doubt that the Ottomans did have a strong influence on Polish, Hungarian and Russian armour. I have noticed that The decoration on Polish shishaks/chichaks/zischagges however is more European and quite distinct from the Turkish helmets.

yes it is, no doubt, especially when we are talking about hussars armament, you can find there strictly Polish decoration and some features. But the shape, overall, is very similiar. 1st pic is the Hungarian type zischagge from German workshop, I have mentioned in the post above, 2nd is the hussars zischagge - compare its shape with the Brian's just posted pics. This one unfortunatelly is quite late, because from the 18th century, so 100 years after the "classical period", but suprisingly it is in classical shape, what was uncommon in those days.

Regards

B.I · 17th June 2005, 11:50 PM

michal,
they are great examples that you show. the german helmet has the mail attached, as we discussed earlier.
reminds me of the ernst schmidt story about hussar helmets :-)
aqtai,
i have never met a woman yet that would turn down a trip to paris, even if it meant sacrificing a day in a boring old museum.
the turks exhibition in the RA was stunning. i got there twice and i have never been more impressed by an exhibition than i was here, both times. it had the best of the best and there was a real surprise for me, in a sword i knew well from photographs was in the 'flesh' for the first time and it was twice the size i had thought it was (mehmet 2nds sword). breathtaking!

17th June 2005, 02:29 AM	#1
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hidden room 2 - captured arms another hidden room in venice. not a single weapon mentioned in any guide, but i was steered their by a friend. as with everything else, not much is in english and cameras are forbidden. i never got round to chasing this up, but i am assuming that with the quantity of early turkish weapons, the may have all been taken at the wars against the ottoman emire in the 16thC. this is the civic museum, ie the museum that displays artifact and history of the town, and so am inclined to think that these weapons were not, nor ever were a 'collection'. the turkish armour and weapons are all within this time period. i wonder if all the other weapons are as well. the yataghans and kris may reveal clues (not my field so please offer opinions) if these pieces could possibly be of the period, then the presence of this collection would make sense. funny what you can stumble across in the strangest of places. i had no idea what to expect when i went there, just having been told there were some 'interesting' weapons! my passion for ottoman armour was well and truly fed. the cane shields are exceptionally rare and to find this many outside the topkapi was breathtaking. Attached Images Last edited by B.I; 17th June 2005 at 02:42 AM.

17th June 2005, 02:32 AM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	more Attached Images

17th June 2005, 02:32 AM	#3
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	sorry andrew. not a dha in sight Attached Images

17th June 2005, 05:23 AM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Are those Stars of David ? Hi Guys I find it interesting that there are Stars of David on Islamic armor? Can anyone explain? Lew

17th June 2005, 02:07 PM	#11
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi aqtai, well observed in pointing out the helmet, as it is a strange concoction. it isnt a kulah khud and is pure ottoman, with slight changes. this is all theory, as it was sometime ago that i saw the collection, but the decoration and style of the whole helmet is ottoman and typical of a type, as is the decoration and the guilding. the difference is the mail. these helmets didnt normally carry mail and instead had 2 ear flaps and a rear neck piece held on by leather, rivetted on to the bowl with copper rivets. the peak and nasal bar were rivetted straight onto the bowl as well, again with copper. the ear flaps and peak on this helmet are en-suite, and so can happily assume they were part of this helmet. the most important point, is that they were normally deeper in bowl, and this fact may explain the current construction. my guess, would be that the helmet suffered damage at some time and was 'shortened'. the bowl was then pierced to hold the chainmail, and the peak and ear pieces were then attached. as it seems an unlikely design for use, there is a chance this may have happened after its working life, for aesthetic reasons only (otherwise you would have the peak bouncing around on your face) if you follow the decoration around the rim, you see it almost ends abruptly. also, the guilding is lost around these holes and the guilding and decoration would have been originally applied after the construction was completed. ottoman helmets carrying mail where done straight onto the helmet at a later design. helmets that carried mail of this period (most notably the 'turban' helmets) had fittings attached, into which a wire was threaded which held the chainmail. still a great piece though! Last edited by B.I; 17th June 2005 at 02:36 PM.

17th June 2005, 03:38 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Somehow, I know where the discussion is going to be headed: A KRIS!

17th June 2005, 05:41 AM	#7
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	The hexagram in Islamic art is not referrred to as the Star of David but rather as the Khatam Suleiman, or King Solomon's Seal. Click on the third picture from the bottom in the link to see its use as an illustration in a Muslim book of prayers and excerpts from the Quran c. 1761

17th June 2005, 08:56 AM	#8
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	Thank you for sharing these great pictures! Has anybody been to the Ca’ Pesaro in Venice? A great Museum for Oriental Art. (Oriental is a little bit misleading in this case) They have an excellent collection of Japanese arms and armour, some Chinese pieces of art and a few Indonesian Weapons. A virtual visit is possible, page is in Italian, but as it is a lovely language, one should not worry about it. http://www.artive.arti.beniculturali...Orientale.html

17th June 2005, 09:46 AM	#9
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi rather, my original 'hidden room' post was from the Ca’ Pesaro. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=137 a stunning collection and well worth the visit.

17th June 2005, 01:38 PM	#10
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Thanks BI for sharing these beautiful pictures with us. Thank you especially for photographing the bowcase, a piece of Islamic warriors equipment that is often overlooked. Have you got any more photos of that bizzare helmet, the one that is a cross between a shishak and kulah khud? I don't think I have ever seen anything like that before. You wouldn't happen to know if it was made that way, or is it a kulah khud that has been "Ottomanified"?

17th June 2005, 02:37 PM	#13
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi aqtai, sorry, i worked out which helmet you meant and edited my question. now it sounds like your repeating yourself for no reason, and i'm clairvoyant :-)

17th June 2005, 03:13 PM	#14
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Thanks for the reply B.I. It is a bizarre piece. I suppose it could be a parade helmet, as you pointed out the peak would be fairly unstable. I still cannot help wondering why such an impractical helmet? With regards to my 1st impression, I believe the Ottomans were in the habit of modifying captured helmets. If I remember rightly, the Royal Armouries (I've not been there since they moved it to Leeds) had a very tall Persian helmet which was "Ottomanified" by having a peak added on to it, and I wondered if the same thing had happened here. H.R. Robinson's Oriental Armour has a line drawing of a slightly more conventional shishak with the peak suspended by hinges rather than usual six rivets attaching it to the brow. Another design which I thought was highly impractical. This helmet does clear up one thing for me. I have often wondered if the lower edge of the mail brow piece of a kulah khud stopped above the eyes or if it was in front the eyes. Obviously with this particular helmet, if the mail was in front of the eyes the wearer would not be able to see.

17th June 2005, 03:24 PM	#15
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi aqtai, the ottomans did indeed reuse helmets from other cultures, and i've seen some strange assemblages, with burgonets with ottoman lamellar neckguards. this piece, however is pure ottoman. also, i still hold to my theory, and so i feel it doesnt help with your khud/vision question, as it may nave been put together after its working life, where the vision wasnt important. also, remember 90% of the khuds you see today are made for decoration, and never for use and so they wont help. a 17thC khud is heavier and larger than the 19thC bazaar pieces. your answer, may be in mail and mail'plate helmets of india, which covered the face completely. these, by theri construction and date would have been made for use, and so i feel the mail curtain didnt obstruct the vision, or if it did, it was deemed acceptable. also note, these earlier helmets were composed of riveted mail and so the links were thicker than the 19thC butted links you see now. even so, it was deemed a necessary obstruction. i will try and find an image of what the ottoman helmet should have looked like.

17th June 2005, 06:37 PM	#16
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	this given an idea of its original form. Attached Images

17th June 2005, 07:34 PM	#17
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Thanks Brian. Very nice helmet. I see why you thinnk the one in Venice may have originally looked like this. I have seen a picture of a very similar Mamluk helmet in the Topkapi Museum attributed to Khayrbek, the last Mamluk governor of Aleppo, the one who betrayed the mamluks to the Ottomans and was rewarded by being made Ottoman governor of Egypt after the Ottoman conquest. Edit: I have just found a picture of that helmet, please excuse the quality, it's a bad photocopy of a very old book. H. R. Robinson has pictures of the same two helmets in his book, he calls this rounded style a muwa'ama (A very Arabic sounding name) and attributes it to Khayrbek. Last edited by Aqtai; 17th June 2005 at 07:48 PM.

17th June 2005, 08:30 PM	#18
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thank you for these pictures Brian. If you are travelling through the Europe remember Krakow - just let me know if you'll be passing by, and I'll open my doors for you Just a few reflections. Watching these beautiful Turkish armament I have a strange feeling, because all of these objects are very familiar to me. Most of them were used in Poland as usual armament, parade armament and of course as the war-trophies. Contacts amongst Poland and Turkey were very wide during 16th-18th centuries, and those who are lucky to have "War and Peace" catalogue, know very well what I'm talking about. Anyway, many of the objects like these are well represented in Polish museums as well. But what astonished me, is the amount of kalkan-shields. Great collection, uncomparable with anything in Poland. Thank you one more time!

17th June 2005, 08:49 PM	#19
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi michal, i must admit, i had thought of you when i created this post and was waiting for you to notice :-) yes, it was the shields that stunned me as well, as its the sheer amount (4 long displays) of such a rare item. and the condition is wonderful. dont worry, i have the city guide you kindly sent me and will start dropping hints to my girlfriend when appropriate. it goes without saying, that the doors will be jammed open should you make it to london. the helmet aqtai and i were discussing left its make on both polish and hungarian design, and it seems that both the mamluks and ottomans were the leaders of fashion for many years. the 'war and peace' exhibition was one of real excellence and shows the quality and importance of the pieces in poland. you will be interested to konw that there will be an exhibition in paris, planned for next year which will be on early islamic arms, with a large amount of important turkish pieces. i cant offer any more details as yet, as the collection is privately owned but it will have a full catalogue, written by one of the leading authorities on islamic arms. will definately post more when i can, with enough notice for people to plan their holidays to suit :-) aqtai, i have attached more images of the helmet type, which helps to bolster my theory about its altered state. however, all good theories have a way of falling flat on its face, and i have included a line drawing, which show the peak section attached by a linkage system, which means its free-moving, just like the venice piece. so, there is an option that the helmet was created like this, but i still feel it doesnt seem right. Attached Images

17th June 2005, 09:59 PM	#20
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Brian: as far as I know, there will also in Paris great Persian exhibition in 2007. There is a chance there will be objects from my museum as well, because I was asked for some of them. If you mentioned the influence of Turkish helmets on Hungarian and Polish ones, it is worth of mentione, that those were of the conical shape. Some of them were made as a tournament or for parade purposes in Germany as well, just like one from my museum, made in Nurnberg. And by the way - Polish classical hussar zischagge is very similiar to those Turkish helmets presented on your pictures . But this is off-topic.

17th June 2005, 10:12 PM	#21
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Thanks for those pics Brian. I see you found the helmet i was talking about. That exhibition on Early Islamic armour in Paris sounds fascinating, however I can't see my wife agrreing to me disappearing to paris for a weekend. I never even got to see the Turks! exhibition at the RA, and that was only in london. Wolviex, there is no doubt that the Ottomans did have a strong influence on Polish, Hungarian and Russian armour. I have noticed that The decoration on Polish shishaks/chichaks/zischagges however is more European and quite distinct from the Turkish helmets.

17th June 2005, 11:50 PM	#24
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	michal, they are great examples that you show. the german helmet has the mail attached, as we discussed earlier. reminds me of the ernst schmidt story about hussar helmets :-) aqtai, i have never met a woman yet that would turn down a trip to paris, even if it meant sacrificing a day in a boring old museum. the turks exhibition in the RA was stunning. i got there twice and i have never been more impressed by an exhibition than i was here, both times. it had the best of the best and there was a real surprise for me, in a sword i knew well from photographs was in the 'flesh' for the first time and it was twice the size i had thought it was (mehmet 2nds sword). breathtaking!