Next keris from Polish Museum

wolviex · 16th June 2005, 10:52 PM

Hello Tim

I'm tending to believe in your "double-sexed nature of the deity" theory also.

Tim Simmons · 16th June 2005, 11:03 PM

Hello Wolviex, this is a picture of a 19th century emblem of the trumpet of Creative Sound.Tim

wolviex · 16th June 2005, 11:08 PM

Thanks again.

One question. If Durga, as it is mostly believed, is multi-armed goddess, why on keris handles she is depicted as two arms woman. Why are these differences made, or could an artist made such departure from the rule ??

Tim Simmons · 16th June 2005, 11:23 PM

This is where I leave the debate.I can only imagine there is cultural dilution, and artistic license to make an ergonomic handle for a weapon I know very little about.Tim

nechesh · 16th June 2005, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolviex

Thanks again.

One question. If Durga, as it is mostly believed, is multi-armed goddess, why on keris handles she is depicted as two arms woman. Why are these differences made, or could an artist made such departure from the rule ??

Just a note, the last 2 images Tim posted of a multi-armed goddess are of KALI, not Durga. While they are related deities, they are not one in the same and are depicted differently.

marto suwignyo · 17th June 2005, 01:30 AM

Devi, "The Goddess", or Maha Devi, "The Great Goddess" ,is the wife of the god Siva, and daughter of Himavat, Himavat being the Himalaya Mountains.

Devi has many personifications, far too many to list and explain here, however, two of these personifications are Durga and Kali.

In her terrible form she is Durga , "The Inaccessible", and takes the form of a beautiful young, yellow woman , riding on a tiger and with a fierce and threatening attitude.

As Kali or Kalika, she is black, has a hideous and terrible face , dripping with blood, encircled by snakes and wearing skulls and human heads.

We are not talking about duality here, we are talking about two ways in which the same being, Devi, is represented. Devi is also represented in many other forms, for example, as Uma, "The Light". As the wife of Siva she is the female energy of Siva, and has these two characters, one mild, the other fierce, but the two characters can be represented in many forms, all with different attributes and different actions.

The keris handle form currently under discussion is an abstract representation of a female. To extend that female representation into a representation of a Hindu goddess when the representation has none of the attributes of the goddess is a pure flight of fancy.

If one wished to hypothesise about who , or what, this female handle form may represent, one has a multitude of female associations to choose from, such as a female ancestor figure, or Sri, "Prosperity", the wife of Visnu, or even the philosophical representation of the hidden male nature of the blade, wilah, inside the observed female nature of the warangka, with the female handle form completing an external female nature concealing a hidden male nature. One could play with these sort of ideas all day.

Regretably for those who wish to make this handle form into a representation of Durga, none of Durga`s attributes are present to support this.All we have is a female form which could represent anything or anybody. Pak Boedhi has already mentioned that this handle form is unknown to him, and indeed , in Jawa this is a very rare form these days, however, those who are familiar with the form, including the only tukang jejeran I know who has carved this form in recent times, refer to it simply as "wadon"="woman", or "female".

For those with an interest in pursuing relationships within Hindu mythology, an easily accessible text is John Dowson`s "Classical Dictionary of Hindu Mythology"

16th June 2005, 11:03 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Hello Wolviex, this is a picture of a 19th century emblem of the trumpet of Creative Sound.Tim Attached Images

16th June 2005, 10:52 PM	#1
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Hello Tim I'm tending to believe in your "double-sexed nature of the deity" theory also.

16th June 2005, 11:08 PM	#3
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thanks again. One question. If Durga, as it is mostly believed, is multi-armed goddess, why on keris handles she is depicted as two arms woman. Why are these differences made, or could an artist made such departure from the rule ??

16th June 2005, 11:23 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	This is where I leave the debate.I can only imagine there is cultural dilution, and artistic license to make an ergonomic handle for a weapon I know very little about.Tim

17th June 2005, 01:30 AM	#6
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	Devi, "The Goddess", or Maha Devi, "The Great Goddess" ,is the wife of the god Siva, and daughter of Himavat, Himavat being the Himalaya Mountains. Devi has many personifications, far too many to list and explain here, however, two of these personifications are Durga and Kali. In her terrible form she is Durga , "The Inaccessible", and takes the form of a beautiful young, yellow woman , riding on a tiger and with a fierce and threatening attitude. As Kali or Kalika, she is black, has a hideous and terrible face , dripping with blood, encircled by snakes and wearing skulls and human heads. We are not talking about duality here, we are talking about two ways in which the same being, Devi, is represented. Devi is also represented in many other forms, for example, as Uma, "The Light". As the wife of Siva she is the female energy of Siva, and has these two characters, one mild, the other fierce, but the two characters can be represented in many forms, all with different attributes and different actions. The keris handle form currently under discussion is an abstract representation of a female. To extend that female representation into a representation of a Hindu goddess when the representation has none of the attributes of the goddess is a pure flight of fancy. If one wished to hypothesise about who , or what, this female handle form may represent, one has a multitude of female associations to choose from, such as a female ancestor figure, or Sri, "Prosperity", the wife of Visnu, or even the philosophical representation of the hidden male nature of the blade, wilah, inside the observed female nature of the warangka, with the female handle form completing an external female nature concealing a hidden male nature. One could play with these sort of ideas all day. Regretably for those who wish to make this handle form into a representation of Durga, none of Durga`s attributes are present to support this.All we have is a female form which could represent anything or anybody. Pak Boedhi has already mentioned that this handle form is unknown to him, and indeed , in Jawa this is a very rare form these days, however, those who are familiar with the form, including the only tukang jejeran I know who has carved this form in recent times, refer to it simply as "wadon"="woman", or "female". For those with an interest in pursuing relationships within Hindu mythology, an easily accessible text is John Dowson`s "Classical Dictionary of Hindu Mythology"