Euro/? Blade Double Use or Euro inspired?

Craig Johnson · 16th June 2005, 05:48 PM

Had a fellow send me these pics asking what this was. Does anyone recognize the script in the blade??

Best Craig

ariel · 16th June 2005, 06:31 PM

There is a strange dissonance between the demonstratively crude blade/tang/inscription and the very fine and civilized marking at the ricasso (profiled face). The conspicuos lack of any disfiguring rusting or deep patina is also strange. None of the letters make much sense to me.
I am very suspicious that this is a 19th -20th (more likely) century "replica".
As they say in South Africa, "I've put my cock on the block" (they mean rooster, of course...)

Yannis · 17th June 2005, 12:32 AM

I dont think it is a script on it. It looks like fantasy sword. With a lot of fantasy on

But it is really well made, exept the tang. They didnt gave lot of attention on the tang because it was covered with a hilt.

Anyway, I like it. It has a character.

ingelred · 17th June 2005, 09:11 AM

I don't know if this is important but the tang seems to be welded onto the blade. Concerning the blade, maybe there once was an inscription on it which did not suit the new owner so he destroyd it. But this is only a guess.

Greetings, Helge

tom hyle · 17th June 2005, 03:18 PM

Very interesting. Don't get discouraged over a "fantasy" sword. This is a hand made piece and very interesting if nothing else. The decorations are forged. I see no writing; only patterns imitative of blade grooves. The lion and the human have a N/E African (Ethiopian?) look. The welded on tang is very meaningful; if the piece was made by an industrial human he was being not only consciously primitive, but knowledgeably primitive. I'd more suggest the "fine art" scene than the recreator scene, but then Europe may be a bit different (AFAIK in that the reenactors etc. are much more authentic and serious as a rule; often only allowing exact copies of specific archaeological pieces to be used, for instance.). On the other hand the tang has a modern look (well, mostly the big hole; other than that it's not real unusual). The thing has features of many blades I've seen, but in unprecedented combination, perhaps. Any imput on temper? Sharpness? The flats appear to have been ground on (or what are those lines?)? It looks like a "primitive" copy of Indo Persian work?

tom hyle · 17th June 2005, 03:19 PM

Is this your sword then? It's very interesting. First, it is not a product of industrial processes, so if it was made by a person from an industrial culture it was with very deliberate and somewhat knowledgeable primitiveness. The welded on tang is the proof pudding for that; industrial culture dislikes a welded on tang, especially when it's the whole thing and not just the back end. Then of course, it is a hammer weld. All the decorations are forged in hot, though the flats seem to have been polished by grinding (? or what are those lines?). I do not think there is any writing, just geometric patterns, made up of lines of repeated stamps, perhaps with some traditional meaning, but mostly just decorative. The lion and the human both seem to be one-piece stamps that were hammered into the hot blade.
I'm not sure what nationality I might guess; if European probably made by a "fine art" art-scene artist/a blacksmith shooting for that scene. If traditional, it's like many things I've seen and unlike all of them.....

........My guess is N/E Africa, based mainly on the lion and the looks of the human.......but the short tang; with a big punched hole?.....seems modern?........almost seems like a "primitive" version of "Indo-Persian" work......
I like the looks of it. Any further information on how it was acquired? Any input on temper?
Ever sharp?

tom hyle · 17th June 2005, 03:20 PM

So I wrote two replies sort of kind of accidentally. See if they agree with each other; it's fun

roanoa · 18th June 2005, 11:15 PM

I believe it's the blade form a Kaskara. I have one (complete with scabbard) that came out of Eritrea. It has the same pattern, which I belive is made to "imitate" the etching in the fullers. It also has two "heads" identical to the one in yours. No lion, though. Has anyone ever taken the hilt off a Kaskara? Is there a hole in the tang?

tom hyle · 19th June 2005, 01:52 AM

I haven't (takouba yes though). It is, however, my information that they usually do not have a pin or rivet thru the blade, and also that the tang is usually full-length and peined at the butt.

derek · 19th June 2005, 06:39 AM

Roano,

Interesting, I see it. At first I saw that "emporer" or whatever he is and thought of some old roman coins I have, but it certainly could be an attempt to imitate the Menelik II or Haille Selassie's image on Abyssinian swords. Especially with the lion on the reverse. And again, the attempt to mimic the pattern in the blade fullers. Seems plausible, but now I really want to know who, when, and why......

tom hyle · 19th June 2005, 11:25 AM

Yeah, I see it, too, but I also see the part length tang with the big hole, and that's what I'm not sure fits. The transverse forged line at the blade base is seen on Berbese (and on Oceanic SE Asian) work. The three lines seem imitative of triple fullers, which are common and widespread, but certainly fit, and also bear a cetain vague resemblance to the spinal decorations on kodme (Berbese Mediterranean dirks). The human looks REALLY Afrasian to me; so that fits, too; the instant reminding is of ancient Egyptian portraiture, for instance; Ethiopeans, Berbers, Somalis, Arabs are for instance also Afrasian (it's a language group; that's how contemporary anthropologists like to divide humans up, usually). The lion reminds of lions seen on this forum on blades made in Europe for the Ethiopean military (yes?) market. Still suspecting it is NE African (Ethiopean, etc.), and the tang resembles short tangs of jambiya and some qamas/kinzhals/etc. that I've been told are the Persian ones. it's the big hole that throws me or that doesn't fit; everything doesn't have to fit, but I'm just saying. The placement of this hole would require a pin that would pass through the very end of the upper lagnet of a Turkic cross type handguard (ala kilij etc.) at best, or thru just the handle (whether there is such a guard or not), which is seen on some N/W Slavo-Turkic sabres, for instance, and it is a particularly large hole, too.......no solid knowledge on the whole thing, but that's the most mysterious factor to me. My guess remains Afrasian/Islamic/Indo-Persian, and most likely NE African; Ethiopea being kind of most suggested. Of course, there's still nothing to rule out it being European neoclassicism or orientalism or whatnot, except that while the big hole in the tang doesn't seem Afrasian, the weld at the base of the tang doesn't seem like (modern) European cutler work, though in decorative arts....Advice? Try to find/specifically identify the patterns to some cultural context. Is it now or has it been sharp? If the edges are conspicuously flat/squared/rebated that slants things considerably toward an art object/decorator sword/whatever and toward Europe. I don't imagine it is spring tempered, or do you check that kind of thing? Many collectors don't, which is understandable. I even broke a sword once flexing it. It was a bad sword; an European 19th c. wallhanger with a cast iron blade (it turns out

), but it was still not a pleasant experience/memory.....Roanoa's testimony certainly points us to NE Africa.

derek · 24th June 2005, 09:11 PM

Hi guys,
I'm posting these for Roano. Certainly does look a lot like this kaskara and the first example are cousins.
-d

tom hyle · 24th June 2005, 11:41 PM

Yep, sure does. Workmanship is identical, eh?

Jim McDougall · 27th June 2005, 07:11 AM

I tend to agree with most of the observations so far, that this is probably an earlier 20th century blade and Roanoa's Eritrean example kaskara is most compelling. The 'script' on this blade seems to be stylized interpretation much in the sense of 'thuluth' as found etched on Mahdist kaskaras, and may be intended to represent ancient Geez characters along with the apparant classical theme of the motif. The profiled head seems to correspond with ancient silhouettes on coins as Derek has mentioned, and possibly there may be some connection to some ruler of the ancient Axumite civilization that existed in Eritrea? The lion is atypical of the familiar and regally portrayed Lion of Judah seen on Ethiopian weapons and seems more totemic or allegorical.

It is important to note that in Eritrea the kaskara remains symbolically important as an element of status in costume as well as ceremonially used. A friend who is from Eritrea once lent me a video of ceremonial dances from his country, which was completely intriguing (especially to my wife who finally had to enter my domain to find out what in the world I was listening to!

A variety of edged weapons are used in the dances, several of which the kaskara ( which is never called by that term, only sa'if) was key to the gestures and movements. It does not seem that a sword from Eritrea would carry Ethiopian references despite the numbers of former Ethiopian population.

Best regards,
Jim

Craig Johnson · 28th June 2005, 01:15 AM

Hello All

Thanks for all the info. Great stuff as usuall. Here are some details the fellow sent.

The edge is sharp, it has a great deal of flex, at the tip I'd say 3/32 thick and close to 3/16 at tang. The sword is sharper toward the tip, I'd say the last 18 inches especially.

The whole in the tang maybe an elemnet that was used for storage of the blade prior to hilting. I have seen it here and there on different examples of unhilted blades I have come across and it does work well to store a large number of blades in a small space.

As far as kaskara go I believe we have had one donated to the Oakeshott Institute recently with another piece when I have them cleaned up and photographed I will post for all.

I will also pass on the info to this fellow.

Best
Craig

rdj2903 · 7th July 2005, 03:43 AM

Many thanks for the help on identifying this sword. It belongs to a friend of mine. I have told him of your findings, he asked me to tell you that it was covered in a very heavy rust we he got it, and he soaked it for weeks in oil trying to clean it up.

rdj2903 · 9th July 2005, 06:09 PM

Does any one of this group have an approximate value for this piece, I assume he'll want to dispose of it since it isn't extremely old?????

Andrew · 9th July 2005, 06:13 PM

If anyone would like to opine as to value, please do so via PM or email. Thanks.

Kubur · 7th February 2015, 09:37 PM

Finally I don't understand this blade is Ethiopian or not?
If it is Ethiopian, the blade should be from the 19th and not 20th?
I' confused here...
Thanks for help

Rick · 8th February 2015, 01:18 AM

It will be interesting to hear comments from our members ten years on .....

David R · 8th February 2015, 10:42 PM

Looks like a fairly standard "Kaskara" blade, probably 19th C. trade blade made in Europe. The pierced short tang is typical of these Sudanese swords.

Kubur · 8th February 2015, 11:22 PM

Thanks, I agree for Kaskara.
I saw on different forums that these blades are Ethiopian from the beginning of 20th c. And I read that Sudanese reused a lot of Ethiopian blade in the 19th c.
Also the Ethiopian blades were in fact produced in Germany and the UK. What a mess! I would like to know more on this particularf type of blade...

16th June 2005, 05:48 PM	#1
Craig Johnson Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 12	Euro/? Blade Double Use or Euro inspired? Had a fellow send me these pics asking what this was. Does anyone recognize the script in the blade?? Best Craig Attached Images

17th June 2005, 03:20 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	bit of a computer error So I wrote two replies sort of kind of accidentally. See if they agree with each other; it's fun

19th June 2005, 11:25 AM	#11
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yeah, I see it, too, but I also see the part length tang with the big hole, and that's what I'm not sure fits. The transverse forged line at the blade base is seen on Berbese (and on Oceanic SE Asian) work. The three lines seem imitative of triple fullers, which are common and widespread, but certainly fit, and also bear a cetain vague resemblance to the spinal decorations on kodme (Berbese Mediterranean dirks). The human looks REALLY Afrasian to me; so that fits, too; the instant reminding is of ancient Egyptian portraiture, for instance; Ethiopeans, Berbers, Somalis, Arabs are for instance also Afrasian (it's a language group; that's how contemporary anthropologists like to divide humans up, usually). The lion reminds of lions seen on this forum on blades made in Europe for the Ethiopean military (yes?) market. Still suspecting it is NE African (Ethiopean, etc.), and the tang resembles short tangs of jambiya and some qamas/kinzhals/etc. that I've been told are the Persian ones. it's the big hole that throws me or that doesn't fit; everything doesn't have to fit, but I'm just saying. The placement of this hole would require a pin that would pass through the very end of the upper lagnet of a Turkic cross type handguard (ala kilij etc.) at best, or thru just the handle (whether there is such a guard or not), which is seen on some N/W Slavo-Turkic sabres, for instance, and it is a particularly large hole, too.......no solid knowledge on the whole thing, but that's the most mysterious factor to me. My guess remains Afrasian/Islamic/Indo-Persian, and most likely NE African; Ethiopea being kind of most suggested. Of course, there's still nothing to rule out it being European neoclassicism or orientalism or whatnot, except that while the big hole in the tang doesn't seem Afrasian, the weld at the base of the tang doesn't seem like (modern) European cutler work, though in decorative arts....Advice? Try to find/specifically identify the patterns to some cultural context. Is it now or has it been sharp? If the edges are conspicuously flat/squared/rebated that slants things considerably toward an art object/decorator sword/whatever and toward Europe. I don't imagine it is spring tempered, or do you check that kind of thing? Many collectors don't, which is understandable. I even broke a sword once flexing it. It was a bad sword; an European 19th c. wallhanger with a cast iron blade (it turns out ), but it was still not a pleasant experience/memory.....Roanoa's testimony certainly points us to NE Africa. Last edited by tom hyle; 19th June 2005 at 06:13 PM.

24th June 2005, 09:11 PM	#12
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Hi guys, I'm posting these for Roano. Certainly does look a lot like this kaskara and the first example are cousins. -d Attached Images

28th June 2005, 01:15 AM	#15
Craig Johnson Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 12	Thanks for all the info Hello All Thanks for all the info. Great stuff as usuall. Here are some details the fellow sent. The edge is sharp, it has a great deal of flex, at the tip I'd say 3/32 thick and close to 3/16 at tang. The sword is sharper toward the tip, I'd say the last 18 inches especially. The whole in the tang maybe an elemnet that was used for storage of the blade prior to hilting. I have seen it here and there on different examples of unhilted blades I have come across and it does work well to store a large number of blades in a small space. As far as kaskara go I believe we have had one donated to the Oakeshott Institute recently with another piece when I have them cleaned up and photographed I will post for all. I will also pass on the info to this fellow. Best Craig

16th June 2005, 06:31 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There is a strange dissonance between the demonstratively crude blade/tang/inscription and the very fine and civilized marking at the ricasso (profiled face). The conspicuos lack of any disfiguring rusting or deep patina is also strange. None of the letters make much sense to me. I am very suspicious that this is a 19th -20th (more likely) century "replica". As they say in South Africa, "I've put my cock on the block" (they mean rooster, of course...)

17th June 2005, 12:32 AM	#3
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	I dont think it is a script on it. It looks like fantasy sword. With a lot of fantasy on But it is really well made, exept the tang. They didnt gave lot of attention on the tang because it was covered with a hilt. Anyway, I like it. It has a character.

17th June 2005, 09:11 AM	#4
ingelred Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Moenchengladbach, Germany Posts: 62	I don't know if this is important but the tang seems to be welded onto the blade. Concerning the blade, maybe there once was an inscription on it which did not suit the new owner so he destroyd it. But this is only a guess. Greetings, Helge

17th June 2005, 03:18 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Very interesting. Don't get discouraged over a "fantasy" sword. This is a hand made piece and very interesting if nothing else. The decorations are forged. I see no writing; only patterns imitative of blade grooves. The lion and the human have a N/E African (Ethiopian?) look. The welded on tang is very meaningful; if the piece was made by an industrial human he was being not only consciously primitive, but knowledgeably primitive. I'd more suggest the "fine art" scene than the recreator scene, but then Europe may be a bit different (AFAIK in that the reenactors etc. are much more authentic and serious as a rule; often only allowing exact copies of specific archaeological pieces to be used, for instance.). On the other hand the tang has a modern look (well, mostly the big hole; other than that it's not real unusual). The thing has features of many blades I've seen, but in unprecedented combination, perhaps. Any imput on temper? Sharpness? The flats appear to have been ground on (or what are those lines?)? It looks like a "primitive" copy of Indo Persian work?

17th June 2005, 03:19 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Is this your sword then? It's very interesting. First, it is not a product of industrial processes, so if it was made by a person from an industrial culture it was with very deliberate and somewhat knowledgeable primitiveness. The welded on tang is the proof pudding for that; industrial culture dislikes a welded on tang, especially when it's the whole thing and not just the back end. Then of course, it is a hammer weld. All the decorations are forged in hot, though the flats seem to have been polished by grinding (? or what are those lines?). I do not think there is any writing, just geometric patterns, made up of lines of repeated stamps, perhaps with some traditional meaning, but mostly just decorative. The lion and the human both seem to be one-piece stamps that were hammered into the hot blade. I'm not sure what nationality I might guess; if European probably made by a "fine art" art-scene artist/a blacksmith shooting for that scene. If traditional, it's like many things I've seen and unlike all of them..... ........My guess is N/E Africa, based mainly on the lion and the looks of the human.......but the short tang; with a big punched hole?.....seems modern?........almost seems like a "primitive" version of "Indo-Persian" work...... I like the looks of it. Any further information on how it was acquired? Any input on temper? Ever sharp?

18th June 2005, 11:15 PM	#8
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 235	I believe it's the blade form a Kaskara. I have one (complete with scabbard) that came out of Eritrea. It has the same pattern, which I belive is made to "imitate" the etching in the fullers. It also has two "heads" identical to the one in yours. No lion, though. Has anyone ever taken the hilt off a Kaskara? Is there a hole in the tang?

19th June 2005, 01:52 AM	#9
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I haven't (takouba yes though). It is, however, my information that they usually do not have a pin or rivet thru the blade, and also that the tang is usually full-length and peined at the butt.

19th June 2005, 06:39 AM	#10
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Roano, Interesting, I see it. At first I saw that "emporer" or whatever he is and thought of some old roman coins I have, but it certainly could be an attempt to imitate the Menelik II or Haille Selassie's image on Abyssinian swords. Especially with the lion on the reverse. And again, the attempt to mimic the pattern in the blade fullers. Seems plausible, but now I really want to know who, when, and why......

24th June 2005, 11:41 PM	#13
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yep, sure does. Workmanship is identical, eh?

27th June 2005, 07:11 AM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	I tend to agree with most of the observations so far, that this is probably an earlier 20th century blade and Roanoa's Eritrean example kaskara is most compelling. The 'script' on this blade seems to be stylized interpretation much in the sense of 'thuluth' as found etched on Mahdist kaskaras, and may be intended to represent ancient Geez characters along with the apparant classical theme of the motif. The profiled head seems to correspond with ancient silhouettes on coins as Derek has mentioned, and possibly there may be some connection to some ruler of the ancient Axumite civilization that existed in Eritrea? The lion is atypical of the familiar and regally portrayed Lion of Judah seen on Ethiopian weapons and seems more totemic or allegorical. It is important to note that in Eritrea the kaskara remains symbolically important as an element of status in costume as well as ceremonially used. A friend who is from Eritrea once lent me a video of ceremonial dances from his country, which was completely intriguing (especially to my wife who finally had to enter my domain to find out what in the world I was listening to! A variety of edged weapons are used in the dances, several of which the kaskara ( which is never called by that term, only sa'if) was key to the gestures and movements. It does not seem that a sword from Eritrea would carry Ethiopian references despite the numbers of former Ethiopian population. Best regards, Jim

7th July 2005, 03:43 AM	#16
rdj2903 Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 2	Sword with lion Many thanks for the help on identifying this sword. It belongs to a friend of mine. I have told him of your findings, he asked me to tell you that it was covered in a very heavy rust we he got it, and he soaked it for weeks in oil trying to clean it up.

9th July 2005, 06:09 PM	#17
rdj2903 Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 2	Approximate Value of lion sword Does any one of this group have an approximate value for this piece, I assume he'll want to dispose of it since it isn't extremely old?????

9th July 2005, 06:13 PM	#18
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	If anyone would like to opine as to value, please do so via PM or email. Thanks.

7th February 2015, 09:37 PM	#19
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Finally I don't understand this blade is Ethiopian or not? If it is Ethiopian, the blade should be from the 19th and not 20th? I' confused here... Thanks for help

8th February 2015, 01:18 AM	#20
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	It will be interesting to hear comments from our members ten years on .....

8th February 2015, 10:42 PM	#21
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Looks like a fairly standard "Kaskara" blade, probably 19th C. trade blade made in Europe. The pierced short tang is typical of these Sudanese swords.

8th February 2015, 11:22 PM	#22
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Thanks, I agree for Kaskara. I saw on different forums that these blades are Ethiopian from the beginning of 20th c. And I read that Sudanese reused a lot of Ethiopian blade in the 19th c. Also the Ethiopian blades were in fact produced in Germany and the UK. What a mess! I would like to know more on this particularf type of blade...