Mystery Dagger

Jim McDougall · 27th September 2010, 07:20 PM

Hi Ron,
Very good points, and I see what you mean about wondering about the 'comprehensively' appointed items often created commercially for tourist souveniers. These in my view are tantamount to the fantasy wares that make those of us seriously interested in weapons history cringe.

It is important to remember that in many cultures, many weapon forms remain key accoutrements and traditional items of costume. In many cases of course they are intended to be fully functional weapons, despite more apparant as status symbols, case in point the janbiyya/khanjhar in many regions of Arabia and the Middle East. Throughout Africa, weapons have been maintained tribally into present times, and in these cultures weapons that often have bizarre shapes have become sought after art pieces.

I suppose that my point is that a reasonably modern made ethnographic weapon is not necessarily a bauble to be hawked to bumbling tourists. In many cases the items are actually worn as an element of dress, as noted, and if a traveller buys it, the individual simply gets another. There are of course souks and bazaars with huge heaps of traditionally fashioned weapons for sale.

The weapons that, as previously noted, might have various recycled or trade components are most likely pieces fashioned 'in the field' for actual use by locals in my opinion. This is because they are essentially custom made using often heirloom components. In the Sahara and the Sudan the broadswords still worn to this day are typically old blades passed down, and often rehilted and mounted as they change hands or become excessively worn.

The notes on the German dagger and Fairburn-Sykes were expressed comparitively however, and not suggesting these components were ever used on modern ethnographic daggers...but knowing the innovation of local armourers, if such were handy, I would not be surprised if they would be used. In that case, I would be inclined to turn away from the item as well.

In Arabia, North Africa, Central Asia and many regions, edged weapons remain integral components of dress and in some cases, actual use in tribal cultures. As such, I have always considered these weapons outstanding examples of the traditions of these cultures still alive and well even into modern times. Even in western culture, the hunting knife is of course well known as of course a prevalent untilitarian item, which of course often reflects traditional styling, such as the famed Bowie form from the early 1830s (or as surmised).

For me I always think it is interesting to find weapons with incongruent components as if the match can be substantiated either forensically or historically, it presents fascinating possibilities. Much of our discussion can often be focused on these kinds of circumstances, and if it were simply a perfect typological match of a weapon from a standard reference, there wouldnt be half the fun

In your posts you clearly are well versed historically and your comments reflect astute observation, so I kind of hope you will 'get the bug' too !

Around here we are sort of the Baker Street group of 'weapons detectives' and it really is great fun as we get 'new cases' ! Everyone here has key specialties, many wide experience, some are artists, some scientific, and with all these perspectives, the dimensions reached in examination are fantastic.

As always a pleasure talking with you, and thanks for the opportunity to expound

on this topic!

All the best,
JIm

27th September 2010, 07:20 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Hi Ron, Very good points, and I see what you mean about wondering about the 'comprehensively' appointed items often created commercially for tourist souveniers. These in my view are tantamount to the fantasy wares that make those of us seriously interested in weapons history cringe. It is important to remember that in many cultures, many weapon forms remain key accoutrements and traditional items of costume. In many cases of course they are intended to be fully functional weapons, despite more apparant as status symbols, case in point the janbiyya/khanjhar in many regions of Arabia and the Middle East. Throughout Africa, weapons have been maintained tribally into present times, and in these cultures weapons that often have bizarre shapes have become sought after art pieces. I suppose that my point is that a reasonably modern made ethnographic weapon is not necessarily a bauble to be hawked to bumbling tourists. In many cases the items are actually worn as an element of dress, as noted, and if a traveller buys it, the individual simply gets another. There are of course souks and bazaars with huge heaps of traditionally fashioned weapons for sale. The weapons that, as previously noted, might have various recycled or trade components are most likely pieces fashioned 'in the field' for actual use by locals in my opinion. This is because they are essentially custom made using often heirloom components. In the Sahara and the Sudan the broadswords still worn to this day are typically old blades passed down, and often rehilted and mounted as they change hands or become excessively worn. The notes on the German dagger and Fairburn-Sykes were expressed comparitively however, and not suggesting these components were ever used on modern ethnographic daggers...but knowing the innovation of local armourers, if such were handy, I would not be surprised if they would be used. In that case, I would be inclined to turn away from the item as well. In Arabia, North Africa, Central Asia and many regions, edged weapons remain integral components of dress and in some cases, actual use in tribal cultures. As such, I have always considered these weapons outstanding examples of the traditions of these cultures still alive and well even into modern times. Even in western culture, the hunting knife is of course well known as of course a prevalent untilitarian item, which of course often reflects traditional styling, such as the famed Bowie form from the early 1830s (or as surmised). For me I always think it is interesting to find weapons with incongruent components as if the match can be substantiated either forensically or historically, it presents fascinating possibilities. Much of our discussion can often be focused on these kinds of circumstances, and if it were simply a perfect typological match of a weapon from a standard reference, there wouldnt be half the fun In your posts you clearly are well versed historically and your comments reflect astute observation, so I kind of hope you will 'get the bug' too ! Around here we are sort of the Baker Street group of 'weapons detectives' and it really is great fun as we get 'new cases' ! Everyone here has key specialties, many wide experience, some are artists, some scientific, and with all these perspectives, the dimensions reached in examination are fantastic. As always a pleasure talking with you, and thanks for the opportunity to expound on this topic! All the best, JIm