Next keris from Polish Museum - Page 3

Tim Simmons · 21st June 2005, 05:10 PM

Why are so called scholars happy to accept the Hindu origin of the "sarpa tapa" and "sarpa lumaka" and a whole host of other Hindu cultral icons such as Naga,Singa,Genesha often shown on the base of the blade.I even have pictures of a Ganesha, carved bone handle from Bali, and yet we are having problems with this handle which as far as I can see is clearly making a sign with her hand, if other Hindu deities are in accepted use why not Durga?Tim

Tim Simmons · 15th June 2005, 03:41 PM

I really do not know anything thing about Indonesian weapons but have enjoyed this topic.This picture, Durga killing the buffalo demon at the temple of Siva, Loro Jonggrang, Prambanan, central Java ,along with other images throughout Asia show her with these many hand gestures.The one with the folded middle fingers must be the most important as this seems to be the only one shown on the handles ,all on the left hand, so I do not think it is damage or a fault in the wood but a diliberate detail.I could be very wrong Tim.

nechesh · 16th June 2005, 01:28 AM

Great pictures BluErf. That first ivory (?) Durga with the balls of fire being emitted from her mouth is just too cool.

I tend to agree that Cedric's Bali example might more likely be Nava Sari. The object held behind the back appears far too stiff to be meant as a vale and looks very much like a stylized grain sheaf. Compare to the obvious fabic material held in Blu's first example.
As for Jensen's method of dating, the major problem with it (aside from it's vagueness) is that the large majority of keris have NOT been collected by museums, so it only allows us to say that a very small precentage of keris are at least this old. Since i have yet to acquire a single keris in my collection from a museum source it is of little help to me in dating my own blades. I have been fortunate to acquire most of my blades from learned sources who have spent many decades researching and studying keris in order to determine age, style, etc. as best they can. Boedhi Adhitya is right to question Tangguh, but for unprovenenced keris it is still the best method available when understood and done correctly. Something i am certainly NOT very good at, but fortunately i have sources that i feel are much more knowledgable than i that i can trust.

Tim Simmons · 12th June 2005, 11:38 PM

When in a hole stop digging.Tim

tom hyle · 12th June 2005, 11:59 PM

I'm not sure what that means; am I in danger of setting off the humans?

Rick · 13th June 2005, 01:53 AM

As the only Silverback here I would suggest that we get this thing back on topic immediately .

Got it ?

Good.

Boedhi Adhitya · 13th June 2005, 06:46 AM

BluErf, I do apologize for misunderstanding. ron dha nunut is quite unusual on old blade in Java, except the very old one, usually have no pamor at all with greenish iron, which would be a very rare one. IMHO, "within the blade profile" ron dha nunut on Java keris resemble the average quality pieces, while "the out of blade" one is better. But there is different approach for this. Bali keris would look sharper and rougher, while Java keris would tend to be smoother, making the transition between the plain edge to the ron dha/greneng looks smoother.

Wolviex, judging keris age would be very problematic, especially if you have only the pictures. If we agree that this keris from Java, 16-18th Cent. would be the era of Mataram kingdom and Kartasura. I wish to believe it from Mataram, but the ricikan/details and proporsion isn't right. The lambe gajah (lambe=lips, gajah=elephant, that is, the small lips-like projection on the lower part of gandhik, near the sekar kacang point) isn't Mataram neither Kartasura. It has a fine line connected and through the gandhik, suggesting nem-neman era. The ganja and gandhik are too thick for mataram, while the luk/waves not deep enough for Kartasura. The sekar kacang also looks too "fat" for Mataram and Kartasura. The details and shape just like the newly made keris today by a very capable keris maker, but the iron in use suggest it's old. So, for now, I would vote for nem-neman

, but to make sure, i've to handle it myself

Bad idea. Anyway, it is a good one, hard to find even here in Java. Just cleaned and put some etch, you may love it more

About the handle, well, I know nothing about it. Sorry. The handle's shape quite unusual in Java, in fact, I've never see it, but from the wood and finish I believe it's Java. The crippled finger seems to be the carver intention. The wood might be Tayuman, stained with pacar leaf, the common finish in Java. To make sure about the wood, if you can put it off, just drown it in the bowl of water. The tayuman might submerge, while other wood may float. Just make sure the hole filled with water.
As we know, keris still a living art here. People may change the handle and sheath to the newer one. So it is unusual in Java to judge the blade's age from it's handle.

BluErf · 13th June 2005, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boedhi Adhitya

BluErf, I do apologize for misunderstanding. ron dha nunut is quite unusual on old blade in Java, except the very old one, usually have no pamor at all with greenish iron, which would be a very rare one. IMHO, "within the blade profile" ron dha nunut on Java keris resemble the average quality pieces, while "the out of blade" one is better. But there is different approach for this. Bali keris would look sharper and rougher, while Java keris would tend to be smoother, making the transition between the plain edge to the ron dha/greneng looks smoother.

Hi Boedhi,

I am looking at Karsten Jensen's book with many Javanese kerises provenanced to the 16th and 17th century. Nearly all of them had "out-of-the-blade-profile" ron dha nunut. How is that congruent with the statement that they are quite unusual in old Javanese keris blades please?

Also, looking at the 16th/17th century Shiva keris on the 1st page of this thread, it would seem to me that the ganja and gandik and sekar kacang and greneng are all very similar. What do you classify the 16th/17th Shiva keris as please? Are 19th century Javanese kerises like this?

Also, I thought Balinese kerises should be smoother than Javanese kerises because they are polished before etching. In my collection, my Javanese kerises are rougher-surfaced than all my Balinese kerises.

Many questions, very little answers.

BluErf · 13th June 2005, 04:09 PM

Empu Kumis, if you are reading this, do give us your opinion please. Thanks!

nechesh · 13th June 2005, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Also, I thought Balinese kerises should be smoother than Javanese kerises because they are polished before etching. In my collection, my Javanese kerises are rougher-surfaced than all my Balinese kerises.

Kai Wee, it has been my understanding that this is only true of later Javanese tradition. I am not sure exactly when the Javanese stopped polishing their keris, but if you look at examples, say, in the Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam that were collected very early on i think you will find a similar polished finish to that of Balinese keris. Note the apparent smoothness of finish on the unstained Kerner example.
I understand now what you were trying to say about the similarities between the "Durga" and Shiva hilts, but IMO, the first impression that the "Durga" gives me is not Bali-esque at all, but a variation of the classic Javanese planar form. It holds pretty much the same shape, just different details in the carving.

Boedhi Adhitya · 14th June 2005, 08:26 AM

BluErf,
First of all, I must admit I don't know about "shiva keris" you are talking about. I only understand the keris. No "shiva keris" term here in Java, and I study under traditional keris tradition in Java. Just for information, here in Jogjakarta, we have a keris lovers/connoiseurs' club, called "Pametri Wiji" which is the oldest club in keris/heirloom subject in Indonesia. This club held a keris discussion every month since 1983. I joined this club in 1997, and in 2003 became the 2nd secretary. Every month, the member bring his collection to be discussed. There are at least 20 blade to be discussed every meeting. This club also held yearly keris cleansing ceremony and consultation, which I also became a part of the team since 2000. At least 200 - 400 blade cleaned every year. Since some of the members are a royal family of Jogjakarta court, I have opportunity to see and handle the first class, court made kerises, old and nem-neman ones, with reliable history, which usually unaccesible to common peoples/foreigners. So, I think I have some first-hand experience, especially in Java keris.

Now back to the subject, I haven't read Jensen's book, and I don't know what methods he use to dating the keris age. I've also found the 16th century Mataram keris in Bali, in nearly perfect condition.(In 16th centutry is the Islamic periode in Java. Majapahit had fallen in late 1400) Handling the keris by yourselves with magnifier at hand might means a lot more than just the pictures. So still I would say, the ron dha nunut is quite unusual on the old 16-17th cent. blades. The nem-neman ones, may have it since the empu wasn't follow very strictly to the dhapur's rules anymore. They make some new dhapur, sometimes a combination of two dhapur in one blade, and many of them unwritten in the old book. (dhapur means "face", that is, the blade's shape which is defined by the ricikan/details and luk it has).
The curving line connecting lambe gajah to gandhik cannot be cheated. The 16-17th cent. lambe gajah tend to look more like a torn than the lips. If there is a line, it won't be curved, but flat. Older blades (I mean the Mataram senopaten and older tangguh, late 1500 and before) have no line at all. The gandhik of nem-neman keris may look like a "smilling face", which I've never seen on older blades.

Balinesse usually polish their blade with pulverized brick, which I thought, may "eat" the blade more than lime juices. Etching quite unsual now in Bali for Balinesse themselves, and I think the skill have lost. Now usually Javanese peoples from Surabaya and Madura who done the etching. The rough profile of Java keris in fact, the criteria which is sought after by the Java collector. It's resembles the 5 sharpness (the point, 2 edges and 2 sides), symbolizing the sharpness of 5 senses. Rough blade's side might only appear if good pamor material was used. If phosporus-rich pamor material was used, it will never get rough by etching, because the pamor is also "eaten" by the lime juices, something won't happen to nickleous-rich pamor.
But anyway, a misunderstanding happen again

The "Rough" which I refered to, isn't the blade, but the transition feeling from the plain sharp edges, to the ron dha nunut/greneng serrated edges. Java keris tend to look (and feel) smoother than Bali. The greneng/ron dha nunut of Bali keris feel like a protruding thorn, ready to catch anything.

Now about carving..

Carving a keris handle is a very specialized skill. A skilled artist would only master one particular shape from his own area. If he tries to copy a handle he don't master, it is not only ended in unproper shape, but also ruining his skill and "proper shape and balance" once he mastered. In the old days, the master handle and sheath makers tried to fit the handle and sheath not only to the keris, but also to the wearer, in such way so sheath and handle would "match" the wearer's character. Today in Jogja, there is only 1, I said one, mastercarver who can carved the simple Jogja handle quite good, but still, not as good as the old one, not even the Bugis, Solo, or Bali. He is only specialized in handle making, and no other. (well, a smoking pipe might be an exception). The old day mastercarver took at least a week to make a handle, if not a whole month. It's an art, not just a handle. Asking any other carver who don't master the skill to copy the handle would never work. So asking Madura carver to copy the Bugis will never work, so does asking Tom

Sorry Tom. Asking the Bugis carver to copy Madura's Donoriko handle would also never work either. It's a very specialized, state of the art skill, not only a talent, which many of them, unfortunately, have lost.

Someone who don't live in the cultures himselves sometimes make a wrong interpretation. For instance, The Parang Rusak Batik cloth. Westerner tend to interpret "Parang" as a single-edge weapon used to slash someone neck

while "rusak" interpreted as "broken", by war, of course. So, the wearer, would be interpreted as a "war monger, blood lust" person. Unfortunately, the Java king use it as his formal dress. Interpreting "Parang" as a weapon is true only in Melayu/Indonesian language, but it isn't true in Javanese language, where the Parang Rusak motif originated. In Javanese, "Parang" might means the cliff on the sea. "Parang Rusak" means broken cliff, which might be interpreted as "you might as tough as cliff, but in the end, it is broken anyway", and for the king, interpretation might be "even the tough cliff broken, and you wouldn't be the king forever too"
Just some insight on how the cultural diffences might turn something upside down

nechesh · 14th June 2005, 12:40 PM

Boedhi Adhitya, i have really been enjoying your posts and trust you will keep them coming. Just a note on BluErf's use of the term "Shiva keris". I believe he was referring to the example in Kerner's book that he has shown us which has a ukiran depicting Shiva, not to a specific keris form called "Shiva keris".

12th June 2005, 11:38 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	When in a hole stop digging.Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 13th June 2005 at 06:17 PM.

12th June 2005, 11:59 PM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I'm not sure what that means; am I in danger of setting off the humans? Last edited by tom hyle; 13th June 2005 at 01:44 AM.

13th June 2005, 04:09 PM	#9
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Empu Kumis where are you?? Empu Kumis, if you are reading this, do give us your opinion please. Thanks!

21st June 2005, 05:10 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Why are so called scholars happy to accept the Hindu origin of the "sarpa tapa" and "sarpa lumaka" and a whole host of other Hindu cultral icons such as Naga,Singa,Genesha often shown on the base of the blade.I even have pictures of a Ganesha, carved bone handle from Bali, and yet we are having problems with this handle which as far as I can see is clearly making a sign with her hand, if other Hindu deities are in accepted use why not Durga?Tim

15th June 2005, 03:41 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I really do not know anything thing about Indonesian weapons but have enjoyed this topic.This picture, Durga killing the buffalo demon at the temple of Siva, Loro Jonggrang, Prambanan, central Java ,along with other images throughout Asia show her with these many hand gestures.The one with the folded middle fingers must be the most important as this seems to be the only one shown on the handles ,all on the left hand, so I do not think it is damage or a fault in the wood but a diliberate detail.I could be very wrong Tim.

16th June 2005, 01:28 AM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Great pictures BluErf. That first ivory (?) Durga with the balls of fire being emitted from her mouth is just too cool. I tend to agree that Cedric's Bali example might more likely be Nava Sari. The object held behind the back appears far too stiff to be meant as a vale and looks very much like a stylized grain sheaf. Compare to the obvious fabic material held in Blu's first example. As for Jensen's method of dating, the major problem with it (aside from it's vagueness) is that the large majority of keris have NOT been collected by museums, so it only allows us to say that a very small precentage of keris are at least this old. Since i have yet to acquire a single keris in my collection from a museum source it is of little help to me in dating my own blades. I have been fortunate to acquire most of my blades from learned sources who have spent many decades researching and studying keris in order to determine age, style, etc. as best they can. Boedhi Adhitya is right to question Tangguh, but for unprovenenced keris it is still the best method available when understood and done correctly. Something i am certainly NOT very good at, but fortunately i have sources that i feel are much more knowledgable than i that i can trust.

13th June 2005, 01:53 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	As the only Silverback here I would suggest that we get this thing back on topic immediately . Got it ? Good.

13th June 2005, 06:46 AM	#7
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	BluErf, I do apologize for misunderstanding. ron dha nunut is quite unusual on old blade in Java, except the very old one, usually have no pamor at all with greenish iron, which would be a very rare one. IMHO, "within the blade profile" ron dha nunut on Java keris resemble the average quality pieces, while "the out of blade" one is better. But there is different approach for this. Bali keris would look sharper and rougher, while Java keris would tend to be smoother, making the transition between the plain edge to the ron dha/greneng looks smoother. Wolviex, judging keris age would be very problematic, especially if you have only the pictures. If we agree that this keris from Java, 16-18th Cent. would be the era of Mataram kingdom and Kartasura. I wish to believe it from Mataram, but the ricikan/details and proporsion isn't right. The lambe gajah (lambe=lips, gajah=elephant, that is, the small lips-like projection on the lower part of gandhik, near the sekar kacang point) isn't Mataram neither Kartasura. It has a fine line connected and through the gandhik, suggesting nem-neman era. The ganja and gandhik are too thick for mataram, while the luk/waves not deep enough for Kartasura. The sekar kacang also looks too "fat" for Mataram and Kartasura. The details and shape just like the newly made keris today by a very capable keris maker, but the iron in use suggest it's old. So, for now, I would vote for nem-neman , but to make sure, i've to handle it myself Bad idea. Anyway, it is a good one, hard to find even here in Java. Just cleaned and put some etch, you may love it more About the handle, well, I know nothing about it. Sorry. The handle's shape quite unusual in Java, in fact, I've never see it, but from the wood and finish I believe it's Java. The crippled finger seems to be the carver intention. The wood might be Tayuman, stained with pacar leaf, the common finish in Java. To make sure about the wood, if you can put it off, just drown it in the bowl of water. The tayuman might submerge, while other wood may float. Just make sure the hole filled with water. As we know, keris still a living art here. People may change the handle and sheath to the newer one. So it is unusual in Java to judge the blade's age from it's handle.

14th June 2005, 08:26 AM	#11
Boedhi Adhitya Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 103	BluErf, First of all, I must admit I don't know about "shiva keris" you are talking about. I only understand the keris. No "shiva keris" term here in Java, and I study under traditional keris tradition in Java. Just for information, here in Jogjakarta, we have a keris lovers/connoiseurs' club, called "Pametri Wiji" which is the oldest club in keris/heirloom subject in Indonesia. This club held a keris discussion every month since 1983. I joined this club in 1997, and in 2003 became the 2nd secretary. Every month, the member bring his collection to be discussed. There are at least 20 blade to be discussed every meeting. This club also held yearly keris cleansing ceremony and consultation, which I also became a part of the team since 2000. At least 200 - 400 blade cleaned every year. Since some of the members are a royal family of Jogjakarta court, I have opportunity to see and handle the first class, court made kerises, old and nem-neman ones, with reliable history, which usually unaccesible to common peoples/foreigners. So, I think I have some first-hand experience, especially in Java keris. Now back to the subject, I haven't read Jensen's book, and I don't know what methods he use to dating the keris age. I've also found the 16th century Mataram keris in Bali, in nearly perfect condition.(In 16th centutry is the Islamic periode in Java. Majapahit had fallen in late 1400) Handling the keris by yourselves with magnifier at hand might means a lot more than just the pictures. So still I would say, the ron dha nunut is quite unusual on the old 16-17th cent. blades. The nem-neman ones, may have it since the empu wasn't follow very strictly to the dhapur's rules anymore. They make some new dhapur, sometimes a combination of two dhapur in one blade, and many of them unwritten in the old book. (dhapur means "face", that is, the blade's shape which is defined by the ricikan/details and luk it has). The curving line connecting lambe gajah to gandhik cannot be cheated. The 16-17th cent. lambe gajah tend to look more like a torn than the lips. If there is a line, it won't be curved, but flat. Older blades (I mean the Mataram senopaten and older tangguh, late 1500 and before) have no line at all. The gandhik of nem-neman keris may look like a "smilling face", which I've never seen on older blades. Balinesse usually polish their blade with pulverized brick, which I thought, may "eat" the blade more than lime juices. Etching quite unsual now in Bali for Balinesse themselves, and I think the skill have lost. Now usually Javanese peoples from Surabaya and Madura who done the etching. The rough profile of Java keris in fact, the criteria which is sought after by the Java collector. It's resembles the 5 sharpness (the point, 2 edges and 2 sides), symbolizing the sharpness of 5 senses. Rough blade's side might only appear if good pamor material was used. If phosporus-rich pamor material was used, it will never get rough by etching, because the pamor is also "eaten" by the lime juices, something won't happen to nickleous-rich pamor. But anyway, a misunderstanding happen again The "Rough" which I refered to, isn't the blade, but the transition feeling from the plain sharp edges, to the ron dha nunut/greneng serrated edges. Java keris tend to look (and feel) smoother than Bali. The greneng/ron dha nunut of Bali keris feel like a protruding thorn, ready to catch anything. Now about carving.. Carving a keris handle is a very specialized skill. A skilled artist would only master one particular shape from his own area. If he tries to copy a handle he don't master, it is not only ended in unproper shape, but also ruining his skill and "proper shape and balance" once he mastered. In the old days, the master handle and sheath makers tried to fit the handle and sheath not only to the keris, but also to the wearer, in such way so sheath and handle would "match" the wearer's character. Today in Jogja, there is only 1, I said one, mastercarver who can carved the simple Jogja handle quite good, but still, not as good as the old one, not even the Bugis, Solo, or Bali. He is only specialized in handle making, and no other. (well, a smoking pipe might be an exception). The old day mastercarver took at least a week to make a handle, if not a whole month. It's an art, not just a handle. Asking any other carver who don't master the skill to copy the handle would never work. So asking Madura carver to copy the Bugis will never work, so does asking Tom Sorry Tom. Asking the Bugis carver to copy Madura's Donoriko handle would also never work either. It's a very specialized, state of the art skill, not only a talent, which many of them, unfortunately, have lost. Someone who don't live in the cultures himselves sometimes make a wrong interpretation. For instance, The Parang Rusak Batik cloth. Westerner tend to interpret "Parang" as a single-edge weapon used to slash someone neck while "rusak" interpreted as "broken", by war, of course. So, the wearer, would be interpreted as a "war monger, blood lust" person. Unfortunately, the Java king use it as his formal dress. Interpreting "Parang" as a weapon is true only in Melayu/Indonesian language, but it isn't true in Javanese language, where the Parang Rusak motif originated. In Javanese, "Parang" might means the cliff on the sea. "Parang Rusak" means broken cliff, which might be interpreted as "you might as tough as cliff, but in the end, it is broken anyway", and for the king, interpretation might be "even the tough cliff broken, and you wouldn't be the king forever too" Just some insight on how the cultural diffences might turn something upside down

14th June 2005, 12:40 PM	#12
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Boedhi Adhitya, i have really been enjoying your posts and trust you will keep them coming. Just a note on BluErf's use of the term "Shiva keris". I believe he was referring to the example in Kerner's book that he has shown us which has a ukiran depicting Shiva, not to a specific keris form called "Shiva keris".