Chinese Jian sword

[Bill M]

Watching Athena's posts got me looking at my first collecting love, Chinese swords.

Pictured is a Jian or double edged sword. Blade is old and has good provenance. Polished by Phillip Tom.

Fittings are recent, but made in an acceptable traditional style, if more elaborate than traditional Jian. Dress is also recently made of old mahagony.

A long Jian of 31" OAL in scabbard.

Comments invited.

[Mark]

Wow. That is a beautiful piece, Bill. The handle fittings are very similar to those of a jian I once owned. The blade was that of a European rapier, which made it rather unusual, but with no activity in the steel.

What's the age estimate on the blade?

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Mark

Wow. That is a beautiful piece, Bill. The handle fittings are very similar to those of a jian I once owned. The blade was that of a European rapier, which made it rather unusual, but with no activity in the steel.

What's the age estimate on the blade?

Hi Mark,

I always hate to throw numbers out, but Phillip and Scott Rodel (who also saw it) think it could easily be Ming Dynasty (1368 -1644 AD)

"The Ming Dynasty ruled over the Empire of the Great Ming (大明國; Dà Míng Guó), as China was then known." Wikipedia

[BluErf]

Hey Bill,

Very very nice jian! It reminded me to take photos of my short jian. Mine has even newer fittings, bordering on the rather fancy side, but nice enough. The jian is very hefty, with a consumerately substantial tang. It may have been a war sword, especially with the pommel ring.

I committed the sin of letting the sword rust more than a year ago and I am still doing 'penance' for that. More than a year ago, after I discovered the rust on the polished blade, I used autosol to get rid of the new rust, which covered the blade in straight polishing marks. I had been using sewing machine oil and tissue paper to polish those straight marks off the blade. After more than a year, I think I'm only a third done. Looks like I have 2 more years of 'penance' to go...

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hey Bill,

Very very nice jian! It reminded me to take photos of my short jian. Mine has even newer fittings, bordering on the rather fancy side, but nice enough. The jian is very hefty, with a consumerately substantial tang. It may have been a war sword, especially with the pommel ring.

I committed the sin of letting the sword rust more than a year ago and I am still doing 'penance' for that. More than a year ago, after I discovered the rust on the polished blade, I used autosol to get rid of the new rust, which covered the blade in straight polishing marks. I had been using sewing machine oil and tissue paper to polish those straight marks off the blade. After more than a year, I think I'm only a third done. Looks like I have 2 more years of 'penance' to go...

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

Hi Kai Wee,

Rust is something we all have to watch! I have found a few spots here and there on some of my other pieces that are really only noticeable in the strong photography lights. I have been cleaning also.

It looks like your blade started life in a longer shape. Notice the distance between the last dot and the tip of the blade? Usually this is the same distance as between the rest of the dots. This could indicate a reshaped tip. I have never seen a ring pommel on one before, but I confess this is not my area of expertise.

I have not heard of the size jian you and I have as being a "war sword." I thought that jian were usually civilian weapons, at least in the Qing dynasty. I don't have information about the Ming dynasty. Usually the military used Dao, single edged swords.

I have a reshaped "horse killer" jian that was originally about four feet long, that was used in battle. But it was my understanding that the shorter jian were traditional weapons of scholars and priests.

Did Phillip Tom polish your blade also?

Nice jian you have there! I think that we got them from the same seller.

[BluErf]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the info on the 7-stars. The 5 stars in the middle are nearly equi-distance while the one near the tip is very short, and the one nearest the guard is a wee bit shorter.

This is the first time that I've seen a pommel ring as well, but after removing the hilt (with great difficulty, as it is fixed through 2 holes in the tang, and I don't think the pegs can take another removal/reinsertion without breaking), I see that the ring is a continuation of the tang, with one end bent backwards and forged shut with the tang proper.

I understand that there is the 文剑 ("Wen Jian", or Scholar's sword) and the 武剑 ("Wu Jian", or fighter's/military sword) differentiation between Chinese swords. The latter being the side arms of military officers and more robustly built.

If a reference from a China-made movie is anything to go by (and I know movies can sometimes be terribly inaccurate), there is this film entitled "Heroes of Heaven & Earth" set in the Tang Dynasty. The protagonist was an officer in the Tang army based in the deserts on the Western frontier of the Tang empire. He refused an order from a superior officer to execute some Turkish or Uyghur female/children prisoners and the superior officer drew his sword to mete out punishment on the protagonist. Our hero drew his sword at about the same time, but because his was a short sword, he drew it faster and won the fight. He explained the phrase “短一寸，快三分” ("duan yi cun, kuai san fen" - shorter by an inch, faster by 3 short units of time) to his subordinates who fled with him after killing his superior. So if Chinese military officers could have used jian as side-arms, it could have been a short one, which could have been used more effectively in close quarter combat, much like the Roman gladius.

The other reason why I suspected the jian could have been a 'war sword' was because it was hefty, but not to the point of being unwieldy. The sword looks like it could take a lot of punishment with it's thick diamond cross section. A scholar's sword would presumably be lighter, thinner, more suited to a person who is not so strong (assuming Chinese scholars don't work out so much ).

You are right about the dao being the favourite Chinese weapon of all time, used by soldiers and brigands alike to chop up everybody.

The sword was purchased polished, by the seller himself; it's from Alex. I dare not let him know what has happened to the sword... Meanwhile, I'll just keep polishing the sword daily until the last of the polishing marks are gone (I hope)...

[BluErf]

Oh yes, and the iron guard - it cannot be removed with the pommel ring in the way, so it must have been an integral part of this jian for a long while. It is a very robust guard, and free of ornamentation. Very likely to be manufactured with the sole purpose of protecting the wielder's hand from serious attacks.

[John]

Ah, I remember this beautiful Jian Bill which looks as right as rain. Have kept those pictures. If I remember correctly, it's indeed from the same seller Kai Wee got his.

And Kai Wee, nice "duan" (short) Jian although I've not seen a scabbard as yours. I like the "fa guang" (shinny) look of blade and seems you're as good in removing rust in Jian as for keris. Also being a fan of "Wu Xia" movies, I've seen the movie you quoted. "...kuai san fen" eh?

[Joe]

Unusual pieces flying about!

I've been looking at Chinese swords for years, and this is the first time I've seen a jian with a ring hilt. And with the guard, it becomes very mysterious, as these are two identical features on early 20th century dadao. Compare with the pic below.

As for a "war jians", they were usually very Spartan in their decorations. Here's a pic of one that was offered by an antique military arms dealer a couple years ago.

[BluErf]

Yep, pommel rings have always been associated with dadao, and I have never seen a second example of a jian with a pommel ring. A real puzzler, isn't it? Another unusual point is that the guard, while bearing some similarities to the dadao's guard, it's made of iron, not brass, like nearly every other jian and dao I've seen.

The sheath and hilt of the jian is late 20th century - absolutely new. So I guess the maker of the sheath and hilt took a fair bit of artistic license in creating them. I think the only old parts were the blade and the iron guard. The rest must have perished. Judging from the iron guard which is bereft of any decorations, the lost old fittings could have been very spartan as well.

Apologies to Bill for hijacking the thread.

[BluErf]

Hi Bill,

By the way, what was the name given to your sword? Was it "Flowing Sand"?

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hi Bill,

By the way, what was the name given to your sword? Was it "Flowing Sand"?

He called it --- no kidding --- "Crouching Tiger" or "Hidden Dragon" or "Tiger Hiding Behind the Crouching dragon" --- something like that. There was a movie that came out about when I got it. He had some funny names. I always liked the idea of naming swords.

I had a good relationship with Alex, but bought one of his modern pieces on eBay and was not happy with it. I felt his quality was slipping. Returns sparked problems with his sister here in the USA.

This spawned me giving her a negative FB. One of the very few I have given. I felt it was necessary.

Lost touch with Alex.

He seemed to have a good heart for the Chinese sword.

[BluErf]

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Hmmm... somehow, when the Chinese names are translated into English, they sound tacky. But they are quite beautiful in Chinese.

The state of antique Chinese jian and dao these days are quite sad. Most of the old pieces are neglected and rusted, and the best pieces are in museum or private collections in Taiwan. European museums hold the remainder. Not much left in China's own museums. And then we have the problem of fakes which became an industry centuries ago in China.

I emailed Alex earlier today to ask about the pommel ring in Chinese jian. He says that pommel rings were first found in Chinese Jian from the Han dynasty to the Ming dynasty. Pommel rings in dao became popular in the Qing dynasty.

There's a couple of links to a Chinese forum showing some jian with pommel ring, though more elaborate in design:

http://hfsword.com/bbs/viewthread.ph...%CD%AD%2Bwudao
[This link leads to thread on a bronze sword with a silver hilt with pommel ring. Discussion revolves around whether the hilt was original to the blade or added later on. Even with x-ray analysis, it was not conclusive. Some other pictures of another hilt with pommel ring (no blade) and a Han dynasty short jian with pommel ring.]


http://hfsword.com/bbs/viewthread.ph...B6%B7%C5%A3%2B
[This link leads to a thread on a Ming dynasty sword with a very elaborate pommel ring.]

[Bill M]

饕殄？

I did not think the names used by ALex to describe Chinese swords were tacky. I like them. I just could not remember what he called mine. Perhaps I should have said "fanciful" - "elaborate" - "grandiose" names instead of "funny." I meant no disrespect to Alex, the names, nor the swords.

Years ago I had regular email contact with Alex. I always liked him personally. Like I said, he has a great heart for the Chinese sword.

It is very sad about the state these wonderful swords have gotten to. Many countries do not have the heirlooms they once had. Heirlooms and regular well-loved general pieces have left their homelands. Particularly homelands that have lower economic bases than other countries. The higher end pieces, even the national treasures flow to the people with money.

I am also disturbed by the apparent fact that museums in the various homelands, do not care for the great pieces they DO have. Some allow good pieces to rust, forgotten in dusty basements and storage places.

At least most collectors take good care of their pieces even if fewer people can see them.

And I am not talking just about China. This is widespread.

Personally I am trying to find quality "homeland" museums that I would like to leave my pieces to when I pass on. This is not as easy as you might think. Sure there are big museums in Europe, UK, and USA, but how about Bali? Java? China? And Especially the Philippines?

The Jian that started this thread, even though the dress is a bit more elaborate than traditional should return to his homeland. But where?

The Moro pieces I post from time to time --- should return to their homeland. But where?

Who will take care of them and love them like I do? Who will display them as part of THEIR national heritage? My children? Hah! They would put everything on eBay. They have no interest in heritage.

Don't mean to hijack my own thread, but if some of you have some answers as to where my pieces can go, where they can return to their homelands, be displayed so others can enjoy them AND cared for as they should be, please PM me.

I hope this does not spark too many requests for birthdays and Christmas presents.

And let me add that I am not ready to start shipping pieces. Just drawing up my Will (and I am very healthy!)

[BluErf]

Hi Bill,

If that is the name of your sword, it is really special!

I think the second word may have been mistyped. Should be:
饕餮

It's pronounced Tao1 Tie4 (1st intonation and 4th intonation respectively).

It's a mythical voracious beast that was used as a talisman to ward off evil in ancient China. And it so happened that there were a couple of examples in the San Xing Dui exhibition and I took photos of them.

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi guys, with regards to posting #9, I have had many dealings with this seller that is referred to with both purchaces and questions over the years..I know his photos very well. I actually bought the sword in the second picture, a pre WWII dao. If anyone would like to see further images or know more about it feel free to request further postings from myself. I also have an old Chinese broadsword I would like to know more about. Bill Marsh, from seeing previous postings regarding jians, I am sure you could hit the nail on the head with both blades.

regards

Gav

[Bill M]

chuff bump

[Atlantia]

Nice one Bill you should be 'chuffed' LOL!

Any ideas on polishing my Dao then?

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hi Bill,

If that is the name of your sword, it is really special!

I think the second word may have been mistyped. Should be:
饕餮

It's pronounced Tao1 Tie4 (1st intonation and 4th intonation respectively).

It's a mythical voracious beast that was used as a talisman to ward off evil in ancient China. And it so happened that there were a couple of examples in the San Xing Dui exhibition and I took photos of them.

I have been going through my collection adding information while revisiting old friends. Would like to know more about 饕餮 . Could I get a more phonetic pronunciation? I think "Tao" is pronounced "Dow" . . . . . and, is the mythical (I hope) beast "Tie"? Perhaps "path of the beast"?

It is frustrating trying to translate subtle meanings and nuances from other languages into English, but I would like to be able to point visitors to my Jian (pictured above) and tell something of it's name (I like) and the beast described.

[KuKulzA28]

饕餮 is pronounced tāo tiè

so the first word the _āo is like the ou in "ouch", tāo in a neutral tone
and tiè, not like a bow-tie but tee-eh except all connected with the last eh sound having a "downwards" tone

Some folks like the numbers to indicate tone, others like the way I shown here...

like BluErf already mentioned, it's some mythical beast

Hope this helps.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

饕餮 is pronounced tāo tiè

so the first word the _āo is like the ou in "ouch", tāo in a neutral tone
and tiè, not like a bow-tie but tee-eh except all connected with the last eh sound having a "downwards" tone

Some folks like the numbers to indicate tone, others like the way I shown here...

like BluErf already mentioned, it's some mythical beast

Hope this helps.

Ah, so the T is pronounced as a hard T. I had heard Tao pronounced "Dow", but should be "tow" as in "ouch"?

It seems the "Tao" has something to do with your spiritual path.

So the phrase "TaoTiè" is this the name of the mythical beast? Or is it a phrase?

[KuKulzA28]

This 饕餮 is pronounced tāo tiè with T sounds.
It is the name of a mythical monster.

the "tao" you are referring to is more properly spelled as dào. Different methods, Wade-giles, pinyin, etc. have different spellings. This makes it much more confusing. The tao like in taoism is a D

Dào, or 道, is like Daoism (Taoism), direction, way, path, method, etc. It is pronounced with a D sound.

In Indonesia and Philippines, there is the name "kuntao" which is the Fujianese/Hokkien way of saying 拳道, or kun tao a.k.a. Quan Dao / Chuan Dow... which literally means "Fist Way" or "Boxing Method". Remember, tone makes all the difference, this is not the same dao as knife/saber. I think in normal Chinese grammar this (kuntao) is awkward as Dao implies a philosophy or spiritual way like in Daoism/Taoism. But perhaps the Hokkien in maritime SE Asia has changed somewhat from its Fujianese/Taiwanese roots. Or perhaps it's a local "bastardization"?? Also notice Aikido, or Taekwondo (Japanese & Korean which have linguistic similarities to Chinese)... the "do" seems to be used the same way kuntao uses "tao" - aka Way of the Fist or whatever... This makes it more confusing because different dialects of Chinese languages have their own sounds, and Mandarin is considered relatively simple, normally having only 4 tones. Cantonese and Taiwanese/Fujianese/Hokkien have 8+ I think....



I hope this helps you.
Speaking Mandarin as your 1st language is useful sometimes.

[yuanzhumin]

Hi Kukulza,

Well I have been away from the forum for a couple of months, but it's good to be back.

Just a little word to precise that the Cantonese has 6 tones (not 8), while the Hokkien/Taiwanese has 8 (the mandarin has 4 tones only, but its already complicate enough for me with these 4 : ))

Warm regards

yuanzhumin

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by yuanzhumin

Just a little word to precise that the Cantonese has 6 tones (not 8), while the Hokkien/Taiwanese has 8 (the mandarin has 4 tones only, but its already complicate enough for me with these 4 : ))

AH! Thanks for the correction. Figures I'd get Cantonese wrong - I don't speak it!

But yeah, Taiwanese 8 tones, Mandarin 4... I knew that. Speakin' of those two languages, I really need to start brushing up on my "native tongues"... it's getting neglected out here in America where I use English a LOT more... My Taiwanese is retarded and my Mandarin is mediocre now... I must also work on my literacy - just being able to speak and listen isn't good enough!

[yuanzhumin]

Kukulza,

I'm in Taichung now where I spend the Chinese New Year with my inlaws.

I wish you and all the members of this forum a happy chinese year of the dragon!

In Taiwanese, the 2 traditional wishes are:

’Kiung hi!’ (translation : in mandarin, ‘Gong qi !)’ May you be successful!

and ‘Tchiok li gei gong ! (in mandarin : ‘Zhu ni jiankang !’ - wish you a good health).



Warm regards,

yuanzhumin

[ThePepperSkull]

Gorgeous Jian, Bill!

It's 31 inches overall, how long is just the blade?


Who did the fittings and scabbard/hilt? you mentioned they are recent. They look fantastic!

[koto]

both jians excellent forged

[BluErf]

I haven't been to this part of the forum for years. Was surprised to see this thread up here. Fate eh? ;p

Try Google translate - copy and past the 2 words into the box and click on the speaker icon for the pronunciation in mandarin.

http://translate.google.com.tw/#zh-CN|zh-TW|

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by yuanzhumin

Kukulza,

I'm in Taichung now where I spend the Chinese New Year with my inlaws.

I wish you and all the members of this forum a happy chinese year of the dragon!

In Taiwanese, the 2 traditional wishes are:

’Kiung hi!’ (translation : in mandarin, ‘Gong qi !)’ May you be successful!

and ‘Tchiok li gei gong ! (in mandarin : ‘Zhu ni jiankang !’ - wish you a good health).



Warm regards,

yuanzhumin

Thanks yuanzhumin... ah I wish I could have be in Taiwan with my relatives during the New Years...

[David R]

Re these heavy jian, I have seen them referred to as Village Jian. Made for and used by the village militias, who being peasant farmers for the most part had no problem with the weight of their weapons. Simply forged, but good san mei blades. There is quite a thread about them on "Great River".