2 recently acquired Trabzon blades

erlikhan · 9th November 2006, 09:33 AM

hi.I am sure the first one is from Trabzon, with its blade and hilt form,leather sewing,even leather ears on the each side of the hilt,which are always seen on black sea yataghans as well.
-I think- second one is from Trabzon too. A more special and richer sample compared to ones seen more oftenly in market,like the one in thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=TRABZON . But I request more knowledged members about Caucassian arms like Rivkin or any other to correct me if it is not from Trabzon but somewhere else in the region. All the pieces have Russian 84 stamps. 2nd choice of me would be Azerbaijan due to the eight pointed star inside the crescent, but Ottomans used the same number of points till 1840s too. It was after then the Ottoman flag was turned to 5 pointed star.

regards

Ian · 9th November 2006, 02:23 PM

erlikhan:

Interesting pieces. What is a "Russian 84 stamp?"

Ian.

erlikhan · 9th November 2006, 02:47 PM

Ian,84 is the silver grade. In today's scale, it means 840 / 1000 silver consistence. In the region Russian mint offices used to stamp silver in latin numbers and Turks,Persians in Arabic numbers.

Ian · 9th November 2006, 03:57 PM

erlikhan:

Thank you. I think I should have known that based on discussion in previous threads. Another factoid to file away in the ever diminishing grey matter.

Ian.

Rivkin · 9th November 2006, 07:53 PM

Erlikhan,

Thank you for your words, however I have to point out that the credit for identifying these is due to Ham.
As with many Trabzon pieces these guys are very interesting. I find it interesting that Trabzon swords would be called shashka if they would be a little longer and quadaras if they would have kindjal hilts.

This is a very classical Trabzon kindjal, however I suspect that they also used to make them in Georgia (Batumi), they have quite a collection of them in Georgia State Museum. The hallmark I think is Tbilisi (bigger resolution pics of marks would help), Baku marks typically have three burning torches.
Alternative explanation would be that someone from Trabzon ordered the silverwork from the north. It also may come from some of the areas that were under russian control in XIXth century ?

Rivkin · 13th November 2006, 07:01 PM

Actually I strongly suspect this type of kindjals is characteristic to entire western Georgia - North-East Turkey area. I do not think it is from Azerbaijan, also because niello is not of deep, Dagestani style, but more of a "flat" style, actually I would say quite characteristic for the area. Below are too images - Gurians with kindjals like the one you have, and the map of georgian tribes (as you can see Guria are quite a long way away from the border. One also has to note that in the time entire Adjaria was muslim and the power constantly shifted between Ottomans and Russia (later Georgia).

Rivkin · 19th November 2006, 06:17 AM

Ok I will give you my opinion without seeing the silvermark:
it is western georgian, adjarian, made in 1908-1917 (judging by stamped marks).

9th November 2006, 09:33 AM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	2 recently acquired Trabzon blades hi.I am sure the first one is from Trabzon, with its blade and hilt form,leather sewing,even leather ears on the each side of the hilt,which are always seen on black sea yataghans as well. -I think- second one is from Trabzon too. A more special and richer sample compared to ones seen more oftenly in market,like the one in thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=TRABZON . But I request more knowledged members about Caucassian arms like Rivkin or any other to correct me if it is not from Trabzon but somewhere else in the region. All the pieces have Russian 84 stamps. 2nd choice of me would be Azerbaijan due to the eight pointed star inside the crescent, but Ottomans used the same number of points till 1840s too. It was after then the Ottoman flag was turned to 5 pointed star. regards Attached Images Last edited by erlikhan; 9th November 2006 at 01:23 PM.

13th November 2006, 07:01 PM	#6
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Actually I strongly suspect this type of kindjals is characteristic to entire western Georgia - North-East Turkey area. I do not think it is from Azerbaijan, also because niello is not of deep, Dagestani style, but more of a "flat" style, actually I would say quite characteristic for the area. Below are too images - Gurians with kindjals like the one you have, and the map of georgian tribes (as you can see Guria are quite a long way away from the border. One also has to note that in the time entire Adjaria was muslim and the power constantly shifted between Ottomans and Russia (later Georgia). Attached Images

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9th November 2006, 02:23 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	erlikhan: Interesting pieces. What is a "Russian 84 stamp?" Ian.

9th November 2006, 02:47 PM	#3
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Ian,84 is the silver grade. In today's scale, it means 840 / 1000 silver consistence. In the region Russian mint offices used to stamp silver in latin numbers and Turks,Persians in Arabic numbers.

9th November 2006, 03:57 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,198	erlikhan: Thank you. I think I should have known that based on discussion in previous threads. Another factoid to file away in the ever diminishing grey matter. Ian.

9th November 2006, 07:53 PM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Erlikhan, Thank you for your words, however I have to point out that the credit for identifying these is due to Ham. As with many Trabzon pieces these guys are very interesting. I find it interesting that Trabzon swords would be called shashka if they would be a little longer and quadaras if they would have kindjal hilts. This is a very classical Trabzon kindjal, however I suspect that they also used to make them in Georgia (Batumi), they have quite a collection of them in Georgia State Museum. The hallmark I think is Tbilisi (bigger resolution pics of marks would help), Baku marks typically have three burning torches. Alternative explanation would be that someone from Trabzon ordered the silverwork from the north. It also may come from some of the areas that were under russian control in XIXth century ?

19th November 2006, 06:17 AM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Ok I will give you my opinion without seeing the silvermark: it is western georgian, adjarian, made in 1908-1917 (judging by stamped marks).