Help with the Moro Kris/Kalis/Sundang

[Interested Party]

Hi, I've been trying to wrap my head around the kris. I've been following the kris threads of the last few months with interest. Having reread them and Cato hope I am prepped enough to start asking questions and with the forum being slow currently I believe this is a good time to ask.

Here are three recently sold examples of average kris that I thought were interesting for various reasons. This is a comparison overview shot.


What is your first impression of these swords? Age, designed use, overall cultural impression. Do we have a name for these swords yet?




Now here is the ganja shot. Does Cato's system of analyzing the ganja work? Two seem to me to be two piece ganja one I am uncertain about. If we had a name is it still the same? What else do you all see?





Dress. Handles. One is missing a pommel I believe. There are 2 baca baca on each. Would the hilt now change the name of each? What culture would you say each is from? Estimates on the age of handles?



Two examples have the sarong/sampir still. Age/culture? How does this change our perception of these two?





Sorry for any mistakes in terminology. I misplaced my vocabulary cheat sheet, but I really wanted to post these questions.

For the "ideal" should a kris be light and springy like a butcher knife or heavy and deliberate like a cleaver?


Thanks as always for any and all help towards understanding.
-IP

[Interested Party]

White metal handle of the middle example. Sorry for the large size it was resizing oddly for some reason.

[Ian]

Hi IP,

I'm occupied with family issues at the moment and will be for a few days. Your questions deserve considered answers, so I'll get back to you ASAP.

Just a few quick observations. Cato describes the charactristics of blades, specifically the "elephant trunk area," that might be attributed to specific Moro tribal groups. This is probably helpful in identifying the origin of the blade. However, as Xasterix has discussed here on the Forum, within Moro culture the tribal attribution of a kris depends on who the last owner was. This is identified by the "dress" of the kris—that is, by the style of the hilt/pommel, the number and style of the asang asang, and the scabbard features. When a Moro acquires a new kris he usually has it "dressed" to his tastes.

Moros acquire blades in several ways: directly from panday (skilled blacksmiths and custom blade makers), by trade within and outside their respective tribal groups, as a bride price, and in combat. Thus, blades from outside their own tribal group become available to them. For this reason, we see a wide range of kris blades in various forms of "dress." All are legitimate Moro kris, but hybrid blades and dress take their designation based on the tribal group of the last owner (regardless of where the blade originated).

More to come when I have time to sit down and write a detailed response that includes comments on your examples.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi IP,

I'm occupied with family issues at the moment and will be for a few days. Your questions deserve considered answers....


Just a few quick observations. Cato describes the characteristics of blades, specifically the "elephant trunk area," that might be attributed to specific Moro tribal groups....


This is probably helpful in identifying the origin of the blade. However, as Xasterix has discussed here on the Forum, within Moro culture the tribal attribution of a kris depends on who the last owner was. This is identified by the "dress" of the kris—that is, by the style of the hilt/pommel, the number and style of the asang asang, and the scabbard features.


More to come when I have time to sit down and write a detailed response that includes comments on your examples.

Thanks Ian that is very much appreciated. I hope everything is okay at home.

Some issues I hope to clarify in this thread are: Is Cato still considered accurate? It is hard to find other written sources outside of this forum. I have read a good bit of Xastrerix (Ray's) thoughts on the kris, including his most recent article. This helped me to understand Cato better in that some of his examples were hybrids. During my first read of Cato's book this made things confusing. The other larger issues are age and attribution of individual features of a kris and how to classify the whole.

It took a while to figure out a format to ask these questions in. Finally I settled on the above format where I broke it down into overall impression, blade via elephant trunk area and ganja, handle and pommel, and finally sheath. Knowing that each one could be a different age and tribal identity. I would have liked to have broken each category mentioned down into separate posts for the most detail, but I thought the discussion would most likely wander and that the current format would be more effective due to the stream of consciousness nature of the forum. My goal is to collect as much concrete information as possible in one thread with comparative examples of similar kris to help my understanding and others with similar comprehension issues. The kris are all straight though the forward angle of the blade differs and although each has two asang asang I am not convinced on a Sulu attribution for them.

I also hoped Ray could give some insights on performance of each design. I am sad I do not have detailed information on weight and cross section of the individual examples. I would expect the white metal design was not meant for hard use as the rings do not look soldered and would shift in the hand, especially as the wood beneath them shrank.

Once again, many thanks in advance to anyone willing to help in this project.
-IP

[xasterix]

Hullo IP! Thanks for reading my article (and thanks for the referral as well Ian!)

As you may have noticed in my article, the samples were from a particular era (late 1800s-early 1900s), as those were the kalis and kris that I've been most exposed to, and had the privilege of studying. I believe all the samples you presented in this post fall under that era.

I look at all the details at the base of the blade, particularly the elephant trunk and the 'katik' or notched guard. Then there are secondary considerations... for example, Sulu kalis usually have slightly smaller blades than their Mindanao counterparts; Maguindanao blades have an outline at the elephant's "mouth," Maguindanao and Maranao battle blades have raised spines at the middle, etc.

If I were to label your sample-blades from left to right as A, B, C.

A is a bit blurry, so I can't give an ID. Meanwhile, B is likely Maranao. C is likely Maguindanao.

The dress of A is Sulu; the scabbard, kakatua and proportions to the hilt, the way the asang-asang are attached to the hilt, the ferrule- all Sulu in my eyes. I believe the dress is as old as the blade, or at least belongs to the same era.

The dress of B is also Maranao- but if what I'm guessing is correct (that the material used is aluminum), then it's of WW2 or postwar make.

The dress of C is Maguindanao. I believe the hilt wrap may have been "upgraded" at a later time. The hilt wrap looks like brass wire-wrap with interspersed brass bands. The asang-asang is also brass, possibly upgraded the same time as the hilt.

With regard to performance.

Among the hilts, here's what I observed:

-All hilts traditionally have a wood core; sometimes the pommel and grip are made as one piece, sometimes they're separate. I favor those made as one piece with hemp or rattan wrap- something like C's, but in its "original" version, and not the upgraded one. The brass or silver wires are a literal pain once they fray. There's a reason why the simple hilts were attached to battle blades- because they were the most functional and least likely to break.

-If the pommel is ivory, the hilt comes in 2 pieces. Regardless how well the ivory pommel part is attached, if the hilt suffers a lot of stress (prolonged and repeated use), the middle part (grip) will eventually break. Ivory is usually "heavy" and I'm guessing the physics of having something modular at the end of the hilt results in significant strain on the wooden grip.

-If the pommel is light metal, the hilt will last longer than an ivory-pommel one, although not as comfortable and resilient as wooden pommels.

Among the blades, here's what I observed:

-Not all kris and kalis blades are made equal. Some are too soft, and the edge might misalign easily. Some are too rigid, and the edge might crack because of the brittle-ness. Heat treatments vary. I personally prefer a balance between the two.

-Blades with little to no lamination cracks perform better overall. It's difficult to find a twistcore blade which retains its edge after repeated stress, but such samples exist.

-There are exceedingly rare kris/kalis blades with exceptional heat treatment that perform like in the stories. I've tested one such blade- repeated strikes on dry bamboo, with no damage at all on the edge, very minimal bends after 5 straight minutes of sustained, repeated abuse. A modern smith couldn't believe its performance, and attributed it to the exceptional heat treatment and edge geometry.

Hope this helps!

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by xasterix

I look at all the details at the base of the blade, particularly the elephant trunk and the 'katik' or notched guard. Then there are secondary considerations... for example, Sulu kalis usually have slightly smaller blades than their Mindanao counterparts; Maguindanao blades have an outline at the elephant's "mouth," Maguindanao and Maranao battle blades have raised spines at the middle, etc.

A is a bit blurry, so I can't give an ID. Meanwhile, B is likely Maranao. C is likely Maguindanao.

The dress of A is Sulu; the scabbard, kakatua and proportions to the hilt, the way the asang-asang are attached to the hilt, the ferrule- all Sulu in my eyes. I believe the dress is as old as the blade, or at least belongs to the same era.

-Not all kris and kalis blades are made equal. Some are too soft, and the edge might misalign easily. Some are too rigid, and the edge might crack because of the brittle-ness. Heat treatments vary. I personally prefer a balance between the two.

Hope this helps!

Thank you for responding! Sorry I took so long to reply. I had to process the answer for a bit.

So two asang-asang do not guarantee a Sulu connection?

I attached a better picture of A.

Do you re-heat treat your blades? Or just find out how they are treated by cut testing? When the edge rolls do you use a finishing steel to realign the edge or grind it true again with a stone?

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Thank you for responding! Sorry I took so long to reply. I had to process the answer for a bit.

So two asang-asang do not guarantee a Sulu connection?

I attached a better picture of A.

Do you re-heat treat your blades? Or just find out how they are treated by cut testing? When the edge rolls do you use a finishing steel to realign the edge or grind it true again with a stone?

Sorry for the response delay!

I believe two asang-asang don't necessarily guarantee a Sulu connection. Thanks for the better pic! For the blade itself- I would posit Mindanao (Maranao or Maguindanao); if I'm correct in this, then it's a hybrid piece, Mindanao blade with a Sulu dress.

A Maguindanao elder, Jinnar Salipada, shared that it was a known practice for Mindanao nobility to "import" Sulu kalis blades, then have these dressed up in Mindanao dress, so that their krises would be unique.

Tausug elder Sali Nagarajen confirmed the existence of this practice on the Sulu side (Sulu nobility imported Mindanao kris and dressed these up in Sulu garb), and said that, aside from unique aesthetics, it was also done as a sign of political alliance.

This would account for the cross-pollination that occurred in the melding of Mindanao and Sulu blades and dresses.

Regarding my blades, I lack both the blacksmithing knowledge and hardware to re-heat my blades (and I won't want to, as I want to test their "original" heat treatment). I check the heat treatment in several ways...the first is by gently trying to bend the blade. The tactile response to bending already gives me a clue about the heat treatment and purpose of the kris at hand.

IF the edge misaligns (but not roll backward), I use my hands to hold the spine and bend the kris blade in one direction, then in the other, and finally try to keep the spine "straight." The edge usually straightens out once the spine is straight.

If the edge rolls backward, I re-sharpen with a high-grit diamond stone and re-hone according to the "original" edge (or at least I try to).

After sharpening, I use a honing steel to align the edges. IF it's a full wavy kris, I use the honing steel for everything (sharpening + honing). Sometimes I strop with leather as well.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by xasterix

Maguindanao blades have an outline at the elephant's "mouth," Maguindanao and Maranao battle blades have raised spines at the middle, etc.

Hope this helps!

Thank you again for your responses. Could I ask some follow up questions for clarification?

What is the outline at the elephant's mouth?

Secondly. If the blade of "A" is thin, light, and springy like a butchers knife. Lenticular in cross section. without a distinct raised spine and described in post #7 as "For the blade itself- I would posit Mindanao (Maranao or Maguindanao); if I'm correct in this, then it's a hybrid piece, Mindanao blade with a Sulu dress." What would it be for? Without a raised spine is this a dress piece or could it be for quick slicing movements rather than heavy chopping blows?

"After sharpening, I use a honing steel to align the edges. IF it's a full wavy kris, I use the honing steel for everything (sharpening + honing). Sometimes I strop with leather as well." I have been experimenting with a honing steel this summer on softer chopping blades. Particularly on a small right-handed talibong the size of a large work knife. If you are stropping the blade with leather, should I take that to mean that you are getting your blades razor sharp or almost before cutting tests?

[xasterix]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

Thank you again for your responses. Could I ask some follow up questions for clarification?

What is the outline at the elephant's mouth?

Secondly. If the blade of "A" is thin, light, and springy like a butchers knife. Lenticular in cross section. without a distinct raised spine and described in post #7 as "For the blade itself- I would posit Mindanao (Maranao or Maguindanao); if I'm correct in this, then it's a hybrid piece, Mindanao blade with a Sulu dress." What would it be for? Without a raised spine is this a dress piece or could it be for quick slicing movements rather than heavy chopping blows?

"After sharpening, I use a honing steel to align the edges. IF it's a full wavy kris, I use the honing steel for everything (sharpening + honing). Sometimes I strop with leather as well." I have been experimenting with a honing steel this summer on softer chopping blades. Particularly on a small right-handed talibong the size of a large work knife. If you are stropping the blade with leather, should I take that to mean that you are getting your blades razor sharp or almost before cutting tests?

Halloo again!

As a general rule, I was taught that a light and fast Kris blade, especially those without a central spine, would be worn by non-warriors: shopkeepers, dignitaries, business owners, and other members of the nobility. Whereas heavy Krises were more likely to be worn by warriors and officers. A member of the nobility would find a heavy Kris cumbersome to carry around especially during social functions, therefore a light blade is preferred. A warrior would be used to weapon-weight and be able to handle heavy kris built for war.

As with many things, the construction of the sword depends on the owner- his stature (both physical and societal), preferences, and role in society. The attributes of the Kris is more owner-based rather than technique-based.

There are many schools of thought with regard to cutting tests. Some would cut with antique swords with edge as-is. But I favor smoothening out chips and dings, sharpening as much as possible following the original edge geometry, then stropping. I usually prioritize edge geometry over going into high grits; I actually only use a diamond stone with 600 grit on one side, and 1200 on the other, before I hone and strop. I believe in testing antiques in a "fresh" state, just as swords would be before they are subject to the rigors of the battlefield.

[Interested Party]

Thanks you Xas for all your help! This thread is definitely helping clarify my comprehension of the keris. I hope it is helping others as well. Here is another example of a kalis. It has many of the elements that have been discussed in recent threads. A blade with five luks that are shallow and a straight top 30-40% of the blade. No medial ridge but instead a fuller for 2/3 of the blade almost to the tip. Bellow the fuller is an arrowhead feature. The area around the trunk/tusk area is ovate and elongated. The lips point straight out and there is no line around the mouth. It has a single asang asang. The pommel is a kacatua without wings. Cord wrapped hilt with a silverish ferule at the top and another at the bottom to hold the cord in place. Is the top ferule a sulu style ferule? Overall I see a non sulu kalis. Is this correct? With the corded handle and a fuller is this then a war blade? What is the groups assessment of this ensemble?

My second question for the group is on conservation. The tip is quite damaged. What would be the ethical thing to do? Remove active rust from the pits and oil, or would a more proactive approach of a gentile reshaping of the tip be the correct move given the location and severity of the corrosion?

[Ian]

Hello IP,

Finally got some time to sit down and write you a response. Apologies for the considerable delay. I put this together over the last few weeks and notice that you have just posted another example, which I will get to in the next day or so.

I labeled your examples 1, 2, and 3 (equivalent to Xasterix’s A, B, And C) and have resized some of the pics to fit the narrative.

To address nomenclature, I would refer you to the discussion in the thread, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=292932, which you have likely read already.

I will focus on the blades you have shown and their dress. These are my own views, and others may well disagree.

Blade # 1.

This is a long, straight-bladed, kris with no prominent midline ridge, fuller, or “arrow head” features. It has two plain asang asang/baca baca. In my experience, twin asang asang are mostly found on Sulu decorated swords, and less commonly on swords of the Mindanao groups. This blade may be the slimmest and oldest of the three you have shown.



The gangya/sampir/katik area has some interesting features. The “elephant trunk” area shows a particularly tall gandhik for a Moro sword (gandhik, Indon., indicated by the vertical white line, extending from the “tusk” down to the line of separation between the blade and katik). The vast majority of Moro kris have a noticeably shorter gandhik. A relatively tall gandhik, such as shown here, is often found on Indonesian keris, and on the heavier Malayan sundang (like this one). Malayan (i.e., Malaysian) culture uses both the keris and sundang.

Another feature of the elephant trunk area is that the shape of the area enclosed by the elephant trunk and gandhik is elliptical. Also, the tusk is angled down with respect to the gandhik. These two features usually reflect a blade of Sulu or Malayan manufacture. This is not surprising given the longstanding trade and geographic proximity of the two. There are also Maguindanao examples that resemble this arrangement, and it’s unclear whether these are Sulu blades dressed in a Maguindanao manner, or Maguindanao-made blades with some Sulu influence. I agree with Xasterix's observation that Moro gentry would take good quality blades made by another tribal group and dress them in their own group’s fashion. Xas has given reasons for this, and his information fits with my own research.

The angle between the midline axis of the hilt and the midline axis of the blade is very small on this example, such that the orientation of the hilt is close to the midline axis of the blade. The midline axis of the hilt is virtually perpendicular to the top of the katik. I think these features, along with the blade length and width, indicate a somewhat older blade.

A Malayan-made blade, or Sulu-made blade showing strong Malayan influence. First half of the 19th C.

Dress # 1.

As noted above, twin baca baca are often associated with Sulu kris, but not exclusively so.

The hilt is lacking the covering of its grip, and the hilt appears to be a two-piece arrangement with a separate pommel. The pommel is what I would call a “standard, mid-size kakatua” that is found widely on some Sulu kris, as well as some Mindanao kris and some Malayan sundang.

The scabbard is in two parts. The cross piece is probably original to the sword and appears to have been a nice piece of banati wood that has seen better days. The remainder is likely a replacement and made from wood of lesser quality. The shape of the cross piece is consistent with Malayan work and also found on some Sulu kris.



I would call this one a Sulu kris or kalis tulid (according to Cato’s information), with evidence of Malayan influence (possibly having a Malayan-made blade).

Blade # 2.

This is a long, straight-bladed, kris with no prominent midline ridge, fuller, or “arrow head” features. It has two asang asang/baca baca. This appears to be a longer and heavier blade than Example # 1.



The “elephant trunk” region shows a circular orientation of the space bounded by the trunk and gandhik. This suggests a blade of Maguindanao manufacture.

The orientation of the hilt to the blade shows a downward tilt to the hilt, and therefore a slightly greater angle than Example # 1 between the midline axis of the hilt and the midline axis of the blade.

Dress # 2.

Both the pommel and the scabbard are missing from this sword. Without the full ensemble, I have trouble assigning the dress to a particular tribal group. The blade is most likely Maguindanao in manufacture.

I would call this a Maguindanao matidto based on the blade and Cato’s terminology. End of 19th C/early 20th C.

Blade # 3.

This is a long, straight-bladed, kris with no prominent midline ridge, fuller, or “arrow head” features. It has two asang asang/baca baca which appear to be made of a copper alloy. This looks a heavier blade than Example # 1.



The “elephant trunk” region shows a circular orientation of the space bounded by the trunk and gandhik. Again, this suggests a blade of Maguindanao manufacture.

The orientation of the hilt to the gangya is a right angle, but the blade is down-turned and slightly down-curved creating a larger angle between the long axes of the hilt and blade than the other two examples.

Dress # 3.

The hilt is wrapped in plaited wire strands with a brass ferrule, a central brass band, and a terminal band. The wooden pommel is a diminutive, “minimalist” kakatua with no crest and the merest hint of a beak. I believe this hilt reflects Sulu work in its style and the use of materials.

A Sulu attribution is reflected in the scabbard also, with the cross piece having prominently rounded shoulders and “rolled over” ends.



I would call this one a Sulu kalis tulid with a Maguindanao blade. End of 19th C/early 20th C.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

My second question for the group is on conservation. The tip is quite damaged. What would be the ethical thing to do? Remove active rust from the pits and oil, or would a more proactive approach of a gentile reshaping of the tip be the correct move given the location and severity of the corrosion?

Hello IP,

I personally would remove the active rust with lemon juice and leave it in this state, the blade is sadly damaged at the tip and you can't change it anymore.

Regards,
Detlef

[JeffS]

Originally Posted by Sajen

I personally would remove the active rust with lemon juice and leave it in this state

Is this a spot treatment or a soak? How does lemon juice compare to white vinegar? Thanks!

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by JeffS

Is this a spot treatment or a soak? How does lemon juice compare to white vinegar? Thanks!

In this case it would be a soak, the effect is the same as when using vinegar. Both liquids are soft acids and will remove the rust but both will leave a grey surface and it's needed to repolish the blade surface.

Regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

Hi Jeff, before I comment on your most recent sword post, can you provide the lengths of the blade and hilt, and also how far from the tip the central fuller extends. Also, a quick question. Did you happen to find this one in Singapore or Malaysia?

As far as the pitting at the tip, I agree with Detlef. A mild attempt to remove the active oxidation would be good. However, the pitting is too severe to attempt a restoration of the tip. It's a pity because this looks like a good quality blade otherwise, and it appears to have some significant age. I would encourage you to address any active rust elsewhere on the blade also. The whole blade would benefit from a good clean IMHO, although you would lose some of the patina accumulated over a couple of hundred years. After treating the tip as suggested by Detlef, I would probably give the whole blade a gentle clean with fine grit sandpaper, trying to keep some of the patina while getting rid of any areas of active oxidation elsewhere on the blade. Then I would etch the whole blade with vinegar (this may bring out a pattern, but it will also give the blade a fairly uniformly grey appearance which can "enhance" the patina effect. I would neutralize the acid with a sodium bicarbonate solution, rinse well, and allow it to dry. Then you have the choice of oiling it or coating it with a silicone-based wax used specifically for restoration work. I've found the latter works well.

If you don't like the etch effect then polish the blade back to white, and oil or wax.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Jeff, before I comment on your most recent sword post, can you provide the lengths of the blade and hilt, and also how far from the tip the central fuller extends. Also, a quick question. Did you happen to find this one in Singapore or Malaysia?

Hi Ian,

It wasn't Jeff who provided this kris, it was IP.

Regards,
Detlef

[Ian]

Hi Detlef,

Thanks! I posted my last comment in the middle of the night (my time) during a period of insomnia.
My apologies IP.

Ian.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Ian

Hi Detlef,

Thanks! I posted my last comment in the middle of the night (my time) during a period of insomnia.
My apologies IP.

Ian.

No worries. I am glad your insomnia is more productive than mine. I am sorry that I can't give you dimensions of the last blade. I have been preoccupied with adulting lately and it slipped through my fingers. It was for sale in the US.

I had read the thread you linked earlier but had forgotten where to find the information it contained. Thank you for refreshing my memory.

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to respond to this thread. The concrete examples are really helping me to "see" these objects more clearly. I wanted to create a thread that brough together many of the elements of the Kalis that had been discussed recently into one thread with many examples to give myself and other readers repetition in recognizing features and what slight variations signified. Ian, is the longer gandik you speak of in relation to Malaysian manufacture/influence the same as what Cato called cross over type?

I asked the question on conservation because I had noticed blades of this level of corrosion being gently reshaped before resale, then etched to hide the loss of patination, and I wondered about the ethics of this process.

[Ian]

Hi again IP,

In post #10 of this thread you show a sword that I did not comment on earlier. It is an older style of blade, with the "arrow head" feature. The "elephant trunk" area is also an older style. However, we don't know the length of the blade and the waves are rather flat for an archaic form of kris. The absence of side panels on this medium-sized kakatua pommel suggests an older form from before the mid-19th C. There are examples of these older forms being "updated" with nailed on side panels.

I would conservatively date this one to the first half of the 19th C, perhaps late 18th C.

The dress on the hilt is not typical Moro work because the cross section of the grip appears to be hexagonal (or possibly octagonal) rather than round. Multifaceted hilts are seen on some old Malayan sundang, continuing up to modern times. There is a nice example of such a hilt, shown recently in this thread, on a Malayan sundang in a Melayu scabbard.

[JeffS]

Love this thread, hope IP cool with others jumping in with examples for discussion . Here is another one for consideration, I recently bought this on Ebay as a clean up project. I'm particularly curious what types of pommel one might expect to find on it. Understood that dress can be highly variable and differ regionally from the sword itself. To my eyes the scabbard almost has a Malay "sampir" style. These are photos from vendor, not high resolution.

[Ian]

Hi Jeff. I think this one is a bit of a "tweener" from the late 19th C. It was definitely meant to be a weapon for combat. The "elephant trunk" area is sort of midway between Sulu and Maguindanao, with a horizontal tusk (Maguindanao feature) and a somewhat oval outline to the area bordered by the trunk and gandhik (Sulu feature). If pushed to decide between the two regarding the elephant trunk area, I would probably pick Maguindanao. At one time there were two asang asang, but now just the one. Two suggests a more likely Sulu origin, but is not definitive.

The midline of the hilt bends down, which is more of a Mindanao trait than a Sulu trait. The cross piece of the scabbard has a rounded bottom shoulder, but a sharply pointed top shoulder. The sharp point leads me to a Maguindanao origin.

Overall, I think the dress is Maguindanao, and the likely pommel was probably a medium-sized kakatua. The supporting peg for the pommel is still there, although damaged.

[JeffS]

Originally Posted by Ian

At one time there were two asang asang, but now just the one. Two suggests a more likely Sulu origin, but is not definitive.

I have another kris with missing asang-asang, also from the "greneng" side (below). This is also seller photo, I have since removed the tape on the handle and rust on the blade. Under that black tape there is still handle wrap holding the prior asang-asang strap and the notch in ferule supported a robust attachment with limited failure points. Of course it could have taken a blow and was lost, but I wonder if it may have been intentionally removed to match style of new owner.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by JeffS

. To my eyes the scabbard almost has a Malay "sampir" style. ...

Yes, it does have a Malay look.

[Ian]

Jeff, it's interesting to note that when a Moro kris is made with a single asang asang, that single asang asang is always on the side of the "elephant trunk." This is also true for Malayan sundang. When there is evidence of twin asang asang having once been present but only one remains on the sword, the remaining one is almost always on the "elephant trunk" side. (I say almost always because I can only recall two or three that have had the remaining one on the side of the greneng.) This suggests to me that the asang asang from the greneng side is removed intentionally to convert a doubly-endowed blade to a single asang asang.

I believe double asang asang are a feature mainly of Sulu kris, while single asang asang are a feature mainly of Mindanao kris and Malayan sundang. Thus, if a Maranao or Maguindanao or Iranum wished to redress a Sulu kris according to their cultural norms, the extra asang asang on the greneng side would likely be removed. I think this is why we see quite a few kris like the one you show, with signs of a missing asang asang on the greneng side.

BTW, the elephant trunk area of the sword in post #22 above looks to be Maranao in origin.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by JeffS

Love this thread, hope IP cool with others jumping in with examples for discussion .

Not at all Jeff. Lots of discussion and datapoints are the dream. I was having trouble seeing the differences between examples. I created this tread to help understand regional differences in the kris with the existing sources I could find. I hoped having lots of examples discussed would be a resource for myself and others.