Unusual Sajen Keris

Athanase · 12th May 2019, 07:21 PM

Hello,

I bought this Keris Sajen from a collection of Indonesian artifacts collected locally between 1960 and 1975.
(There was also a mini tombak and two other mini Keris in sandang walikat dress with wavy blade that seemed to me contemporary of the purchase. )

This kriss intrigues me because the blade is very thick 8mm (and 12mm for the head). I'm not sure if it was directly forged like that or if it was cut and reforged in an old tombak blade because the lines of the pamor are cut at the base of the edges, just before the character.

What do you think?

Overall length without scabbard : 21cm

Sajen · 15th May 2019, 01:10 PM

Hello Severin,

Indeed a most unusual example!

And I can't add any great Information. Have a look to this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=keris+sajen

I would try to remove the rust and try to give it an etch to see if there is any pamor visible.

Regards,
Detlef

David · 15th May 2019, 04:12 PM

I don't know what others think about this example, but i must say that i find it highly suspect. It does not seem to be constructed in a manner that would allow me to say it was a true keris sajen, though i suppose there is always the possibility that an inexperienced smith was called to create such an object and followed through with the best of his knowledge. You could follow through with Detlef's suggestion of etching in search of pamor, but many sajen, especially older ones, did not have any pamor at all, so i don't know what finding pamor or not on this example would add to our understanding of it.

A. G. Maisey · 15th May 2019, 11:56 PM

Keris sajen are often made from re-cycled items of tosan aji.

The word "sajen" means an offering, strictly, an offering that is made to spirits.

The offering is not intended for re-use, if an old piece of tosan aji that has some history attached to it is used to make the keris used in the offering, this is a plus for the intended purpose, not a negative.

Athanase · 19th May 2019, 02:19 PM

Thank you for your comments.
I apologize for my late response but lost my password.

I don't think this Keris Sajen is very old (XXth entury but before 1970) but even if it doesn't respect the standards I think it was created for a local spiritual use because it does not seem to have been made to look like a very old antiquity and is very different from the mini keris for tourists I've seen.

The photos were taken after a first cleaning, the remaining rust is really very resistant. I hesitate to use the pneumatic micropercutor of the museum where I work because I am afraid to mark the blade.

A. G. Maisey · 19th May 2019, 10:54 PM

Athanase, I have worked with and have trained museum employed conservators, and I do realise that museums work in accordance with different objectives and parameters than do most collectors. However, the rust that I can see on this blade would be easily removed by using the approaches to blade cleaning that are used in Jawa or Bali (although these result in different finishes) and that is now used by most educated collectors of keris and other tosanaji in the world outside Jawa and Bali. This traditional approach uses a combination of chemical and mechanical cleaning methods.

Sajen · 19th May 2019, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

You could follow through with Detlef's suggestion of etching in search of pamor, but many sajen, especially older ones, did not have any pamor at all, so i don't know what finding pamor or not on this example would add to our understanding of it.

All keris sajen and other tosan aji I've seen and handled have had pamor or pamor sanak, all have been from folded iron. Look to the from you given link and Alans site: http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerissajen.html This will be visible already when cleaned with lemon or vinegar. Frankly said I don't have the suspections about the "orginality" of this piece you have.

Regards,
Detlef

David · 20th May 2019, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

All keris sajen and other tosan aji I've seen and handled have had pamor or pamor sanak, all have been from folded iron.

You may be right Sajen. I didn't say all or even most. Of course they are folded, but does that always include the addition of pamor material?

Sajen · 20th May 2019, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

You may be right Sajen. I didn't say all or even most. Of course they are folded, but does that always include the addition of pamor material?

Hello David,

No of course not. But removing the remaining rust and etch will give some hints if the piece is "authentic".

Regards,
Detlef

12th May 2019, 07:21 PM	#1
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 408	Unusual Sajen Keris Hello, I bought this Keris Sajen from a collection of Indonesian artifacts collected locally between 1960 and 1975. (There was also a mini tombak and two other mini Keris in sandang walikat dress with wavy blade that seemed to me contemporary of the purchase. ) This kriss intrigues me because the blade is very thick 8mm (and 12mm for the head). I'm not sure if it was directly forged like that or if it was cut and reforged in an old tombak blade because the lines of the pamor are cut at the base of the edges, just before the character. What do you think? Overall length without scabbard : 21cm Attached Images

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15th May 2019, 01:10 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,769	Hello Severin, Indeed a most unusual example! And I can't add any great Information. Have a look to this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=keris+sajen I would try to remove the rust and try to give it an etch to see if there is any pamor visible. Regards, Detlef

15th May 2019, 04:12 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,120	I don't know what others think about this example, but i must say that i find it highly suspect. It does not seem to be constructed in a manner that would allow me to say it was a true keris sajen, though i suppose there is always the possibility that an inexperienced smith was called to create such an object and followed through with the best of his knowledge. You could follow through with Detlef's suggestion of etching in search of pamor, but many sajen, especially older ones, did not have any pamor at all, so i don't know what finding pamor or not on this example would add to our understanding of it.

15th May 2019, 11:56 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,889	Keris sajen are often made from re-cycled items of tosan aji. The word "sajen" means an offering, strictly, an offering that is made to spirits. The offering is not intended for re-use, if an old piece of tosan aji that has some history attached to it is used to make the keris used in the offering, this is a plus for the intended purpose, not a negative.

19th May 2019, 02:19 PM	#5
Athanase Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Paris (France) Posts: 408	Thank you for your comments. I apologize for my late response but lost my password. I don't think this Keris Sajen is very old (XXth entury but before 1970) but even if it doesn't respect the standards I think it was created for a local spiritual use because it does not seem to have been made to look like a very old antiquity and is very different from the mini keris for tourists I've seen. The photos were taken after a first cleaning, the remaining rust is really very resistant. I hesitate to use the pneumatic micropercutor of the museum where I work because I am afraid to mark the blade.

19th May 2019, 10:54 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,889	Athanase, I have worked with and have trained museum employed conservators, and I do realise that museums work in accordance with different objectives and parameters than do most collectors. However, the rust that I can see on this blade would be easily removed by using the approaches to blade cleaning that are used in Jawa or Bali (although these result in different finishes) and that is now used by most educated collectors of keris and other tosanaji in the world outside Jawa and Bali. This traditional approach uses a combination of chemical and mechanical cleaning methods.