Military Dao, casted steel?

[Roland_M]

Hey Guys,

a few days ago I won this Dao for a very reasonable price. The blade itself was in pretty good condition with abolutely no forging pattern at all, only some deep nicks from earnest fighting. No pattern, no forging flaws. But it seems too old for a modern mono-steel blade. It was neccesary to polish the blade up to a grit of 2000, to see the first effects in the steel (picture 2 with silver steel).

After etching and cleaning, I was extremely surprised about the result. The surface looks almost like a clear sky at midnight, full of tiny stars. This is no pitting from corrosion, it has something to do with the steel.
I guess, this blade was made from chinese casted steel, similar like wootz but laminated and with a very narrow hamon.
The blade is heavy (71 cm without tang, 8 mm thick and 930 Grams blade only), very strong and tough together. This steel would be my personal choice for a heavy sword, it is absolutely reliable.

Right now only one side is finished, if someone is interested, I can show more pictures after I finished the work.


Any thoughts? This steel is completely new for me, so every opinion is helpful.


Roland

[mariusgmioc]

Hello Roland,
I don't think there is such a thing as cast steel. Due to its high carbon content, steel cannot be properly cast. If it can be cast, then it means it has a lower carbon content an we are talking about iron... cast iron more precisely.
But I believe I see clear signs of forging and possible lamination in your photos.

[Timo Nieminen]

I guess that Roland refers to traditional Chinese steel made by decarburising cast iron. Old process, became widely used during the Han dynasty, and was used into the 20th century.

Efficient, since the smelting furnace can be run continuously (since the output is molten cast iron and molten slag) - feed in charcoal and ore from the top, tap the output from the bottom. Efficient because you don't waste energy heating the furnace (except right at the start); these furnaces could operate continuously for 40 days or so (not great compared to modern blast furnaces which can operate continuously for 40 weeks).

Things which can usefully be made from cast iron are cast on the spot (tools, woks, etc.), and for things which need to be tougher, you decarburise the cast iron until you get steel of appropriate carbon content. The old Chinese name for such steel was "fried iron", since pieces were heated and stirred in the decarburisation process.

I have at least on kukri marked "cast steel" - it's forged rather than cast. The "cast steel" refers to the steel used - modern (18th to 20th century) Western crucible steel, where blister steel is melted in closed crucibles, allowing slag to be removed. The molten clean steel is then cast, and used for subsequent forging.

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I don't think there is such a thing as cast steel. Due to its high carbon content, steel cannot be properly cast. If it can be cast, then it means it has a lower carbon content an we are talking about iron... cast iron more precisely.

These days, there are plenty of steel castings. Note that cast iron has more carbon than steel (usually 3-4%). It's easier to cast than steel or iron since the carbon lowers the melting point.

[benny.lee]

HI
I'm from China.
There is no doubt that this is a Chinese DAO
From the point of view is "1754 DAO text"
Is the Qing Dynasty in China, 1814 OR 1874
I think he is an ordinary sergeant with a DAO

[mariusgmioc]

[QUOTE=Timo Nieminen]I guess that Roland refers to traditional Chinese steel made by decarburising cast iron. Old process, became widely used during the Han dynasty, and was used into the 20th century.
/QUOTE]

Very interesting.

Thank you Timo!

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

I guess that Roland refers to traditional Chinese steel made by decarburising cast iron. Old process, became widely used during the Han dynasty, and was used into the 20th century.

Hi Timo,

thank you very much for your interesting explanation!
I have no idea about steel making in ancient China, it is pretty difficult for me, to gather informations about this interesting topic. It is easier to find informations about steel making in Borneo than in China. Do you have any links for me?

One reason for my guess that it is made from crucible steel (smelted in a pot and later forged out to a blade) is that the material behaviour is very similar compared to my Kilij and the reaction to the etchant is more like wootz than mechanical damascus.

I am sure, that this is high quality steel because despite of the very deep cut and other heavy notches, the blade is not bended or skewed.


Roland

[Timo Nieminen]

The best reference I know of is Science and Civilisation in China V5-11, Ferrous Metallurgy:
http://www.cambridge.org/au/academic...lume-5-part-11
The author, Donald Wagner, has also done some other books on the traditional Chinese iron industry, but I haven't read them, so don't know how much the content overlaps.

[Ian]

Roland and Timo:

Thank you both for this interesting discussion of Chinese metallurgy.

The Han techniques have persisted in southern China up to the present time. The Husa people who live in Yunnan and neighboring areas of Burma and Thailand are said to be descended from Ming soldiers who brought with them the premier sword making skills of that time. The Husa still make their swords and knives in the traditional manner and sell these widely in Burma, Thailand, and even as far away as Assam. Hardened edges are seen commonly on their swords and knives, and many of their blades are not obviously laminated. The techniques they use seem to be similar to what you are describing here.

The Husa continue to make edged weapons in the traditional way. We have discussed them here before and I think there are pictures posted of the sword making techniques they use currently. A search for Husa or Achang (the broader ethnic group to which they belong) on this site will provide additional information about them.

Ian

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Ian

The Husa continue to make edged weapons in the traditional way. We have discussed them here before and I think there are pictures posted of the sword making techniques they use currently. A search for Husa or Achang (the broader ethnic group to which they belong) on this site will provide additional information about them.

http://www.chinaontv.com/china_vide...pid=9572&part=1

Sorry, just see that it isn't working anymore.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by benny.lee

There is no doubt that this is a Chinese DAO
From the point of view is "1754 DAO text"
Is the Qing Dynasty in China, 1814 OR 1874
I think he is an ordinary sergeant with a DAO

Hello Benny.lee can you elaborate please.

Are you able to read the mark at the tang? What tell us this inscription? What you can tell us about this sword?

Agree, a very interesting discussion.

Roland, are you going to restore the handle?

Regards,
Detlef

[benny.lee]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Benny.lee can you elaborate please.

Are you able to read the mark at the tang? What tell us this inscription? What you can tell us about this sword?

Agree, a very interesting discussion.

Roland, are you going to restore the handle?

Regards,
Detlef

Thank you for sure.
The inscription "1754" is a calendar, a 60 year cycle
On Chinese sword metal forging, the ancient no high temperature furnace, with charcoal as fuel, mixed with iron sand, after many times forging hammers
Posted pictures of the Ming Dynasty sword

[Sajen]

Thank you benny.lee!

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by benny.lee

Thank you for sure.
The inscription "1754" is a calendar, a 60 year cycle
On Chinese sword metal forging, the ancient no high temperature furnace, with charcoal as fuel, mixed with iron sand, after many times forging hammers
Posted pictures of the Ming Dynasty sword

This looks very similar to a Japanese naginata.

[Marcus]

The phrase "acier fondu" began appearing on European pistols (mostly French andBelgian) in the nineteen century and is usually taken to mean "cast steel", suggesting an improved process for making gun steel.

[benny.lee]

Originally Posted by estcrh

This looks very similar to a Japanese naginata.

Yes in 16 Century, trade between China and Japan was frequent
But their use is different.
This DAO is used to Chinese equipment Navy, long rod, which can effectively attack the enemy in the boat

[Roland_M]

Originally Posted by benny.lee

Thank you for sure.
The inscription "1754" is a calendar, a 60 year cycle
On Chinese sword metal forging, the ancient no high temperature furnace, with charcoal as fuel, mixed with iron sand, after many times forging hammers
Posted pictures of the Ming Dynasty sword

Hi Benny.lee,

thank you for the translation and the picture.

There is a second stamp on the hilt, which looks like a "B". Do you know the meaning of this stamp? A kind of military quality stamp like the Seki-stamp in Japan?


Hi Detlef,

yes I will restore the hilt, James is going to do the job. I will also search for ancient Dao parts.


Roland

[benny.lee]

Originally Posted by Roland_M

Hi Benny.lee,

thank you for the translation and the picture.

There is a second stamp on the hilt, which looks like a "B". Do you know the meaning of this stamp? A kind of military quality stamp like the Seki-stamp in Japan?


Hi Detlef,

yes I will restore the hilt, James is going to do the job. I will also search for ancient Dao parts.


Roland

I think that's a flaw
Or a label, such as a workshop.
It is not a Chinese character

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by benny.lee

Thank you for sure.
The inscription "1754" is a calendar, a 60 year cycle
On Chinese sword metal forging, the ancient no high temperature furnace, with charcoal as fuel, mixed with iron sand, after many times forging hammers
Posted pictures of the Ming Dynasty sword

Hello Benny Lee,

Looking at the photos of the Ming dynasty sword, I became convinced this is a Japan made Naginata, as one can clearly identfy the typically Japanese hada and hamon.

Please bear it in mind that at those times, weapons were one of the very few items Japan had available for trade and they traded them heavily with China in excange of various other items (silk, silver, gold, ivory, etc.).

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello Benny Lee,

Looking at the photos of the Ming dynasty sword, I became convinced this is a Japan made Naginata, as one can clearly identfy the typically Japanese hada and hamon.

Please bear it in mind that at those times, weapons were one of the very few items Japan had available for trade and they traded them heavily with China in excange of various other items (silk, silver, gold, ivory, etc.).

I have to agree here, it looks like a naginata, I would like to see if there are any other supposedly Chinese blades like this one, and how was it mounted in China.