Tomas De Aiala sword blade.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Blade length 37 1/4 inches (94.5 cm) tang length 6 1/8 inches (15.5 cm). On one side TOMAS DEAIALA or TOMAS DEAIAIA other side IESVS MARIA. The I in Jesus looks like a J but upon close inspection it appears to be an I. I know there are many period and later blades with spurious markings but I'm not sure with this one. Looking forward to your thoughts.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Please excuse the photography I have no camera at the moment so the wife's phone and a little jiggery-pokery on the computer was all I could do so the photos may appear a bit photoshopped with an odd colour temperature.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Almost identical blade re the profile and the IESVS MARIA mark, http://www.fricker-historische-waffe..._2013_engl.pdf sixth photo down and the sword above the Cinquedea. This one in obvious better condition than mine as most of the detail in mine has worn off. On my blade there are signs of use i.e. the usual small nicks and the sword still has a bit of an edge.
Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Images from a well known auction house.
Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Blade on mine is double edged flattened hexagonal cross section after the fuller tapering to almost lenticular very near the point.
Regards,
Norman.

[Fernando K]

hello

In modern silk, the name is TOMAS DE AYALA

Affectionately. Fernando K

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

hello

In modern silk, the name is TOMAS DE AYALA

Affectionately. Fernando K

Hi Fernando,
Many thanks for the input.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Norman,
The TOMAS DE AIALA name was from Tomas Ayala of Madrid ( who is also noted Toledo as he was of course of these smiths) and his son Luis who was in Barcelona. They worked c.1566-1620 but more on their exact dates and locations is unclear among arms writers.
The Tomas Aiala name, like Andrea Ferara, became one of those names of famed makers which became a sort of trademark, and appeared on blades from Italy (c 1620s) and Germany later..in fact into 18th century.

The JESUS MARIA was used by Milanese armourers (Wagner, 1967, p.173) as well as apparently by the Ayalas In any case the combination of these names and variations of spurious Toledo marks often are seen.

In my opinion , the occurrence of the 'anchor' device suggests a Solingen version here probably 17th century using the Ayala 'trademark'.

I have seen rapier blades with Jesus Maria and Toledo marks as late as 18th century (with Ayala though) as a good number were discovered in a wreck off Central America in the 80s. These, like the 'Spanish Motto' blades were shipped in good numbers to Spains colonies from Solingen producers.

[fernando]

Therefore and most probably a XVIII century Solingen blade.
Very good catch, Norman

[Norman McCormick]

Jim and Fernando,
Hi guys, many thanks for your thoughts and input on this blade. A couple of points for consideration, the flukes of the anchor are in fact the terminus of the decoration around the fuller and the stock and the shank are a cross and not connected to the aforesaid decoration. The marks are engraved or punched and not etched, etching and a different spelling appears to be more common on later blades. The general style of the blade would suggest to me middle 17thC and not 18thC. I realise of course that the likelihood of it being a genuine Tomas De Aiala blade is remote in the extreme but having no blades to compare with I wasn't sure. I do think the general profile of the blade slots somewhere in the 17thC but I've been wrong before. Thanks again for your input.
My Regards,
Norman.

[fernando]

I guess that, if it were a blade forged by Thomás de Ayala (as spelt in the XVIII century), during his early XVII century activity, would have his mark on the tang, in the ricasso area ....

.

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by fernando

I guess that, if it were a blade forged by Thomás de Ayala (as spelt in the XVIII century), during his early XVII century activity, would have his mark on the tang, in the ricasso area ....

.

OOPS!!! Should have done my homework better.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
A very long shot here, does anybody have a hilt or parts thereof that is\are contemporary, stylistically correct for this blade and is willing to part with same?
Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

Norman, in reviewing this you make some good points, and I am inclined to think you may be right on 17th c attribution here. The position of the anchor as you note, as well as the style of the fuller with the profiling along each side of the blade remind me of blades I have seen of Alonso Perez. This maker of Toledo also used a similar type anchor device.
What is interesting is that one of the Perez blades was on a rapier found on the well known galleon wreck , the Atocha, which sank in 1622.

What Fernando said is also correct, the punzone used by Tomas Ayala , the crowned ST would have been at the ricasso if indeed his work. Also I am unclear on why it would be Tomas DE Aiala and not TOMAS AIALA.
As noted he was around until the time of the Perez blades, so it certainly seems plausible it could actually be the general period.....the only concerns for me would be the nature of the tang/blade which does not correspond to the blades of period rapiers if I am correct.

Next I would ask what sort of provenance might have this blade without hilt. I have seen of course, many instances of unmounted blades, notably with JESUS MARIA as previously noted from a wreck (I think there were about 40 of them). These were apparently Solingen made and probably latter 17th c. and the punzones were not Ayala. These also had the same style tang as this one.

The 'disconnect' in the 'anchor' I think possibly due to these style markings (we call them anchors, but they are stylized sigils in my opinion) seeming to have peculiarities which reflect highly nuanced symbolism.

As far as finding a hilt, it seems some of the large auction houses sometimes have 'parts' sections in their offerings (at least Wallis & Wallis used to). It would be extremely difficult to find a displaced hilt, especially of period and style to suit this blade. For me personally I think I would hold to what it is....the JESUS MARIA blade I have has always remained unmounted.
I once had a great 17th century tulwar blade but mounted on a more modern hilt..........it finally got to me and I let it go.
Just my thinking.

All the best,
Jim

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Jim,
Many thanks for your further thoughts. As far as remounting the blade I would agree with you that it is probably best left as is particularly as I can see little evidence on the tang that it was ever mounted but and it is a big but if a contemporary hilt and fittings were available would I be tempted, possibly? Re the name I was under the impression that the smiths name was Tomas De Aiala and not Tomas Aiala.
Kind Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Ignore my ramblings the blade must have been mounted at some point as it shows signs of use but been dismounted some time ago as the patina on the point of the tang is the same as the rest of the tang. Old age doesn't come alone.

P.P.S. Is this the symbol or similar you are referring to?

[Norman McCormick]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As noted he was around until the time of the Perez blades, so it certainly seems plausible it could actually be the general period.....the only concerns for me would be the nature of the tang/blade which does not correspond to the blades of period rapiers if I am correct.


Jim

Hi Jim,
Can you expand on the tang/blade thing a little more?
Kind Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Some thoughts on a composite!!!!

Search/ triggers new broom, the ship of theseus on youtube

[Jim McDougall]

I'm really bad at finding pics etc. but what I mean is that on rapiers it seems the guard of course is at the base of the blade, and the ricasso extends to the bottom of the grip. In other words there is a section where the fingers extend past the grip and around the block section. With the cuphilt for example, the cup is at the blades end, and inside there are pas d'ane rings adjacent to the ricasso......then the grip starts beyond that.

In this type of tang, the grip is right at the blade base, there is no ricasso to be visible inside the cup or guard.
Fernando can explain this better

The symbol you show here is the cross and orb, while somewhat related to the 'anchors' in having cross symbolism, is not what I mean by the symbol on your blade.
The cross and orb relate mostly to German blades, and though often suggested 'makers marks' are usually used in conjunction with various names, invocations or other inscriptions on blades. This is very much like the way the 'anchors' were used on Spanish blades, and used in Solingen with other spuriously used punzones, names and phrases.

On the Aiala name, just an observation as the name is spelled differently on various occasions so interjection of the 'de' might be correct. Just seemed notable.

[fernando]

In the plate and nomina designed and crafted by Francisco Xavier Palomares in 1762, after the listing drawn by his father Francisco Santiago Palomares, the name for these smiths (father Thomás and son Luis) was DE AIALA.
Mind you, the maker's punzon may appear both in the uncovered part of the tang, before the guard (ricasso), also in the first third of the blade section (forte).
BTW, the term ricasso may also be applied to the blade section right after the hilt when its purpose is the ( long) sword entire hand holding, which is a different story.
Whereas the blade has (or not) an assumed ricasso before the hilt, i would say such is not a characteristic of different smiths but the purpose the blade is going to serve, whether a cup hilt sword, a swept hilt rapier, you name it.
I am not sure this whole story makes sense, as i am far from having a profound knowledge of the subject.
Attached are examples of marks in ricassos, the first a cup hilt sword with period symbol in both sides and the second with a makers punzon in one side; the first also with a period typical motto on the blade (MIN SINAL HES EL SANTISSIMO CRUCIFICIO) and the second with the maker's name (GONZALO SIMON).
Master Gonzalo Simon (1608-1617) also figures in the Palomares nomina and, eventually also uses the 'anchor' mark



.

[Jim McDougall]

Superbly explained and illustrated by the master !!! Thank you Nando!

[Fernando K]

Hola Me ha llamado la atencion el motto . No deberia ser

MI SEÑAL ES EL SANTISSIMO CRUCIFIJO

Afectosamente. Fernando K

(El traductor no permite, o no se, ponerlo como corresponde, en ingles)

[fernando]

Espaderos were not so good in writing as in forging blades, Fernando .
The only letter of the motto i was not sure of, was the H, as this part of my blade was rather worn.
But i happened to locate the mentioning of a shell guard sword (item #234) in the Portuguese/Spanish exhibition of 1882 in Lisbon, with the same motto and precisely the same words ... and with the H included. Also the Christ crucified symbols were present in the ricasso. Such sword belonged to D. Jaquim Garcia Toledo from Lisbon.

[Jim McDougall]

Just found it I think Norman,
In Boccia & Coelho (#726) there is an Italian smallsword (c 1680-90) with virtually this exact type blade, and the quad dots next to the 'eye' with dot, fuller etc.
In this case the 'Tomas' is on obverse side of bade while 'Aiala' other.
In this case this tang would insert directly into hilt as seen here, and there would be no 'stem' type ricasso as with rapiers.
I'll try to get a pic, but always a challenge with my antiquated tools (and me
In Wallace (1962) it is noted that in many cases Italy used the Tomas Aiala name, just as did Solingen. In this case this could well be a Solingen blade in Italy, or other way around but used on smallsword rather than rapier.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Fernando and Jim,
Many thanks for your continued interest and elucidation. I'm still trying to tie down a more specific date and style for this blade but from your replies and what I've found myself the range of possibilities are pretty wide, the search goes on. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.


P.S. Jim, is the blade you refer to etched or stamped/engraved?

[Jim McDougall]

It is stamped and seems in accord with Solingen work, the date range seems reliable as Boccia & Coelho seems to be such a work . The attribution of the smallsword in to Florence, but it is more a provenance note . As Wallace Coll (Mann,1962) notes from during the lifetime of Tomas Aiala, his name had become rather a trademark for quality and it seems there were blades c1620 from Milan using it. Therefore this could equally, and even probably, be a Milan issue. It seems these 'eye' marks were not apparent in Solingen blades I can recall.





Jim

P.S. Jim, is the blade you refer to etched or stamped/engraved?[/QUOTE]

[cornelistromp]

Hi Norman,

as per your Email request, herewith my opinion;

I think it's a rapier blade (given the broad ricasso of same width indeed an early rapier blade and not a small sword blade) from the last quarter of the 16th century perhaps very early 17thC, given the eye mark, probably Italy.

Hope it helps.

best,
jasper

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Jim and Jasper,
Many thanks for your thoughts and input, much appreciated.
My Regards,
Norman.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Just found it I think Norman,
In Boccia & Coelho (#726) there is an Italian smallsword (c 1680-90) with virtually this exact type blade, and the quad dots next to the 'eye' with dot, fuller etc.
In this case the 'Tomas' is on obverse side of bade while 'Aiala' other.
In this case this tang would insert directly into hilt as seen here, and there would be no 'stem' type ricasso as with rapiers.
I'll try to get a pic, but always a challenge with my antiquated tools (and me
In Wallace (1962) it is noted that in many cases Italy used the Tomas Aiala name, just as did Solingen. In this case this could well be a Solingen blade in Italy, or other way around but used on smallsword rather than rapier.

@ Jim
very good find, it seems to me that an early 17thC shortened rapier blade is re-used in this 17thC small sword.This was done a lot during the transition from rapier to the much faster small swords, in the second half of the 17thC.
(always shortened at the base not the tip!)
an Italian origin for the blade under discussion is likely.

best,
Jasper

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Just noticed this mark on the tang. Unlikely to be a makers mark, inventory number?

Hi Jasper,
Thanks for finding the photo re Jim's post.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Jim McDougall]

As always Jasper, your input here is outstanding and your experience with these weapons truly helps in better evaluating them and understanding key details. I very much appreciate your posting the example from Boccia & Coelho (my scanner is junk!).
As you note, and I misperceived, the tang on this blade does have the length to have been a rapier, and your assessment of date spot on.....
with that......Norman I think you quite possibly have a true Ayala!!

All the best,
Jim