Resin, traditional recipies

[Gavin Nugent]

There has been a lot of questions over the years about original resins in relation to weapons manufacture.

I am looking for a little direction with traditional Turkic resin solutions used in sword manufacture for securing grip slabs, grip straps, guards and no doubt holding scabbard leathers and suspension fittings in place.

Whilst I am looking further in to the Turkic regions and asking for a little help I think it would also be well placed if the thread developed in to an entire region specific method of creating native resins for weapons not modern epoxy componds.
It is bound to differ greatly from country to counry, region to region and would be well worth seeing the any diferences in say a Nepalese Kukri and Burmese Dha or a Turkish Kilij and a Mandau from Borneo etc.

I am sure many could benefit from this knowledge being shared in one thread for easy reference..

I look forward to reading about this from those better versed on the subject.

Gav

[Tim Simmons]

Gav, they very probably along with resins used "animal glue" I can still remember a rock hard pot of it in the school metalwork department. This would be better than many resins.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Gav, they very probably along with resins used "animal glue" I can still remember a rock hard pot of it in the school metalwork department. This would be better than many resins.

A great start thanks Tim, I'll have a look down that road.

I look forward to seeing traditional recipies of any relevant form now that you have bought this to my attention.

thanks

Gav

[Neil]

Hopefully this tidbit is of some interest. I have heard of fish glue being used to fasten Chinese spear heads to their shafts. Unfortunately I do not have a recipe or literary source to site. No doubt, one idea often leads to another though so I thought it was worth mentioning.

[tom hyle]

fish-bone/hide/hoof glue is more brittle than boiled down tree sap (pitch/resin); thus it is a good ad-hesive, but a poor co-hesive for filling large gaps, setting tangs, etc. Also, I think it remains water-soluble? Thus it is not traditionally used by professional cutlers for this pupose AFAIK although my experience of Chinese spears specifically is slight. Never seen it on a sword except as a non-professional after-market repair.
I am very interested to read about pitch/resin; tree species, thickening and application techniques, etc.

[t_c]

Great thought Gav - an official glue thread!
I'll try to make a humble contribution in regards to a Japanese "rice glue". If I remember the process correctly, one would grind down rice to a fine powder (mortar and pedestal) and then add water to make a paste. Apply the paste, let dry, and you had a semi-decent glue. I haven't tried this myself, but a friend had some mixed results with it though. Maybe someone else has better information on rice glue process.

I'd be interested in anyone's experience with making ( or information regarding) the black pitch that is found in PI and Indonesian weapons. What is that stuff?

tom

[Rust Collector]

There is mastic, the resin of Pistacia Lentisicus, it grows throughout the mediterranean I know it was in wide use across moughal India attaching tulwar blades to hilts. I don't remember anything about the turks using it.

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by t_c

I'd be interested in anyone's experience with making ( or information regarding) the black pitch that is found in PI and Indonesian weapons. What is that stuff?

tom

It it a mixture based on damar.
Here is a thread giving some details
: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=damar

You can buy damar maybe in specialised paint stores. (as in paint used for paintings)
But when you buy it from such a store it is than very clean and not black / dark at all.

Best regards,
Willem

[Robert]

I'm not sure if this is exactly what you are looking for but here are a few links on cutler's resin that might be of some interest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutler's_resin
http://www.marquis-kyle.com.au/mt/000646.htm
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/i...e;topic=4491.0

Robert

[tom hyle]

The cutler's resin Robert mentions sounds like the stuff European cutlers use/used in table cutlery. It is rather chalky and not suitable for sword tangs.
I have a chunk of tree resin out of a tulwar hilt that is reinforced with twisted copper wires a-la re-bar.
The use of the right tree is important and from what I read in old sources, the process is rather tricky to get "just right"
Also, modern artist's/jeweler's black pitch is not the same by any means as the stuff inside old Asian sword handles, BTW. Specifically, it is softer, in my experience.

[kronckew]

nepali 'laha' used to glue on khukuri grips is made from tree resin and buffalo dung (for the fibre), maybe with a bit of beeswax. smells wonderful when heated

[Tim Simmons]

Gum Arabic, might be more suited to the region. My dabblings with tree and damar is that they are brittle unless very thick in section. Mixed with bees wax makes it much less brittle but opaque and the colour will depend on how dark the wax is. Adding powdered charcoal also seems to add to the hardness. There are resins that when set are not brittle and clear, I have examples but have no idea what the source is.


Picture of resins and small piece of resin with beeswax and 1kg block of beeswax actually two 500g blocks fused together. Dark colours might come from resin found in the wild or locally preperation as opposed to buying an industrial prepared product. Also one has now idea what additions and handling an item might have been through in the original making.

[David R]

Some time back on a site dedicated to Kukri's they mentioned a mixture of resin and honey as the glue to fix tang into hilt. By the way, hooray, at last serious discussion about these fixatives. I think many of us have sadly looked at a dismounted tulwar and wondered how to get it back together.
One of the posters on sword forum international gave a rough compo he used on a kilij type sword that involved resin and brick dust along with, I think, sealing wax.

[fearn]

I recall that the first volume of Traditional Bowyer's Bible had some recipes for traditional glues used with bows. Considering the stresses bows undergo, they might work okay.

F

[tunggulametung]

I have a kalis tang that appear to be fixed with Tien Ta Yao Gin at least the odor and color matched . It appear to be used to lacquer the cord on the hilt as well. It is easy to find in Java but not sure about south PI. I heard gondorukem were used on keris but never find evidence, nice woody scent when heated. It is hard and bound to wooden surface alright (cord also I guess) but I would say somewhat brittle. Need to check how it bound to iron.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by fearn

I recall that the first volume of Traditional Bowyer's Bible had some recipes for traditional glues used with bows. Considering the stresses bows undergo, they might work okay.

F

Great thought Fearn, I don't have the volumes you speak of but I'll consult Klopsteg's Turkish Archery and see what hides within, thanks!

I must say everyone has put forth some great input in to the thread. I'd love to see it develop deeper in to manufaturing processes, even weapons specific.

Gav

[Tim Simmons]

Many Indian and other Asian weapons have the tang set in a grainy plaster/cement like compound. In trying to repair a choora hilt I found the tang held with this substance which hand become very crumbly.

This substance is like a fine lime mortar. Lime mortar in ancient.

[t_c]

Ok, So Damar is just pine pitch glue (Damar Pine) with some combination of charcoal, beeswax, and some other hardening/bonding agent (clay,fiber,etc). That's been helpful reading, thanks. So if I understand this right, Damar and the European cutler's resin were relatively the same in so far as they are all pine pitch glues?

I found the whole process to make pitch glue nicely outlined here:
http://www.survivaltopics.com/surviv...ng-pitch-glue/

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Many Indian and other Asian weapons have the tang set in a grainy plaster/cement like compound. In trying to repair a choora hilt I found the tang held with this substance which hand become very crumbly.

This substance is like a fine lime mortar. Lime mortar in ancient.

Yes Ive seen that same stuff & I remember reading in an old book years ago that in Afghanistan & NWF a mix based on Borax was often used to hold on sword hilts.

The Laha I saw used used in Dharan Nepal in 2005 was boiled tree resins,saps & tars mixed with hard powderd or ground substances like stone, bone & buffalo horn dust etc. untill it is of the right quality & consitancy.

Occasionaly its dark brown mostly its black. I expect many different handy ingriediants have been chucked into it over the years.

spiral

[VANDOO]

THE SAME PITCH USED TO CAULK CRACKS, PROTECT ROPES AND GEAR FROM MOISTURE ON SAILING SHIPS IS OFTEN USED TO WATERPROOF AND SECURE BLADES AS WELL AS WOVEN CORDS ON WEAPONS. NATIVE AMERICANS USED NATURALLY OCCURRING PETROLEUM FOUND IN SEEPS ON ROCK FACES OR POOLS OR TAR BALLS FROM BEACHES. ASPHALT OCCURS NATURALLY IN QUITE A FEW PLACES AND WOULD HAVE BEEN AVAILABLE AND YIELD GOOD ADHESIVES. THE LABEREA TAR PITS IN CALIFORNIA AS WELL AS OTHER SEEPS COME TO MIND AND NO DOUBT WERE TO BE FOUND HERE AND THERE. IT WORKED WELL FOR SEALING BASKETS TO HOLD LIQUIDS AS WELL AS TO SECURE POINTS OR WATERPROOF GEAR. NO DOUBT THESE NATURALLY OCCURRING SEEPS WERE AVAILABLE IN MANY AREAS AND PROCESSED AND USED FOR MANY THINGS BY MANY SOCIETY'S.
I BELIEVE THE SAP (RAW LATEX) FROM THE RUBBER TREES WERE PROBABLY PROCESSED AND USED FOR SIMILAR PURPOSES. THERE WOULD BE MINERAL , VEGETABLE AND ANIMAL ADHESIVES AND GLUES FROM MANY SOURCES USED. PERHAPS SOMEONE FROM AUSTRALIA COULD ENLIGHTEN US ON THE PREPARATION OF SPINIFEX GRASS AND GUM TREE RESINS USED BY THE ABORIGINALS.
ADHESIVES THAT WERE WATERPROOF SEEM TO BE PREFERRED ESPECIALLY ON WEAPONS OR TOOLS THAT WOULD SEE A LOT OF USE. I HAVE DUG UP LUMPS OF BLACK ADHESIVE IN OLD INDIAN CAMPS SEVERAL HUNDRED YEARS OLD. I HAVEN'T TESTED THEM BUT SUSPECT THEY ARE NATURAL PETROLEUM/TARS WHICH ARE HIGH IN PARAFFIN AND WATERPROOF.

[migueldiaz]

In western Visayas particularly in Panay, the sap from the breadfruit tree (local name is kamansi) is traditionally used as blade tang adhesive.

From a Hiligaynon-English dictionary:

kalólot, To apply any sticky, viscous material. Ginakalólot sa ápal sang binángon ang tagók sang kamánsi. The juice of the bread-fruit is used for fastening the handle of a bolo.

I think in Moroland, I think a tree sap called galgal is used. Spunjer would know this better.

[tunggulametung]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

In western Visayas particularly in Panay, the sap from the breadfruit tree (local name is kamansi) is traditionally used as blade tang adhesive.

Migueldiaz, thanks, I recognized this as kluwih in Java. I will try to experiment sometime

I read some articles about what might be used on mandau: nyatu/nyatoh and sambun, some mention getah merah and getah putih which might relate but I can't tell how they differ.

Attached is gum/resin product from Indonesian forestry dept. website.

[Gavin Nugent]

This is great stuff guys, Pandora's box has been opened.....

Thanks heaps for the efforts.

Gav

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

I read some articles about what might be used on mandau: nyatu/nyatoh and sambun, some mention getah merah and getah putih which might relate but I can't tell how they differ.

In the old books about Borneo I've read, they are repeatedly speaking of "Guta Percha".

[tunggulametung]

Originally Posted by Maurice

In the old books about Borneo I've read, they are repeatedly speaking of "Guta Percha".

I'm not familiar with it but this gutta percha (getah perca) really looks like one on mandau indeed .

I would like to add: this could be the one used for keris/pedang hilt core which incorporated silver wrapping.

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Migueldiaz, thanks, I recognized this as kluwih in Java. I will try to experiment sometime .

Tunggulametung, thanks too for the info!

Closely related to what we call kamansi would be rimas, which in Malaysia or Indonesia is sukun. Additional info is here and here. Perhaps the sap of rimas/sukun will also do the job.

By the way, getah in your language is gata in ours, and they mean the same thing.

[Spunjer]

yep, galgal is indeed used, but i'm not sure if that's the colloquial term for sap, or the name of the tree itself.
incidentally, i'm working on a kris right now that somehow the tang of the blade is protruding from the handle; i believe the wood shrunk and eventually pushed it out. fortunately, i was able to salvage the galgal, first time i've done that, so i could actually refit the blade using the original resin. here's the picture of the galgal:

[David]

Originally Posted by asomotif

It it a mixture based on damar.
Here is a thread giving some details
: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=damar

You can buy damar maybe in specialised paint stores. (as in paint used for paintings)
But when you buy it from such a store it is than very clean and not black / dark at all.

Best regards,
Willem

Thanks Willem, i've been looking for this old thread.

[tunggulametung]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

yep, galgal is indeed used, but i'm not sure if that's the colloquial term for sap, or the name of the tree itself.

Pine tar might be the one used to seal the rope that wrap the hilt, just a guess since it has similar properties with Tien Ta Yao Gin , maybe one of the ingredients of galgal too.

@ Migueldiaz, yes sukun is similar but kluwih has more esoteric properties in Java , but I'll try both whenever possible. The fruit sap is sticky that you want to oil the knife before you cut, but I think the gata is too weak to serve the purpose, I'll try the one from the tree .

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

@ Migueldiaz, yes sukun is similar but kluwih has more esoteric properties in Java , but I'll try both whenever possible. The fruit sap is sticky that you want to oil the knife before you cut, but I think the gata is too weak to serve the purpose, I'll try the one from the tree .

tunggulametung, thanks, and pls. do let us know what your experiments will yield!