Labels, true or just heaps of bull****

[Tim Simmons]

I do not know? In my experience they are added spin. I got these two at a militeria fare today. Just guns and big war stuff, a few Indian pieces, the only ethnographic bits were a couple of knobkerrie a Chokwe axe and these. Not expensive but big enough outlay for items one would be cautious of.

I think it was early this year that I met a fellow member at the British Museum while viewing a small collection of many similar artifacts on loan from the USA {Washington DC} no photographs allowed. These two pieces do not appear to be any different. The club with the round stone held in a bent stick covered in tree resin is 54cm long not including the tassles {rather fragile}, 6cm diameter stone. I like this one the most. The one with the painted stone 61cm long, the stone just over 6x4x3cm. Quite whip like in action, small but would easily knock a hole in your head. I am just a sucker for bull?

[Atlantia]

Labels are the easiest thing to fake thats for sure!
That saying, the clubs look good! Where was the fair?

[David]

There are, of course, a great variety of styles and forms in the world of Native American clubs and i would be the first to admit that i don't know much about them. But one thing that does seem to be present in most of the ones i've see is a high level of craft which seems absent here. I am therefore rather suspicious of these as authentic examples.

[David]

Is is a link to some examples of Plains Tribes war clubs:
http://www.lithiccastinglab.com/gall...clubspage1.htm

[Tim Simmons]

Great Link David. I have some information to up load. Like you, with this sort of material one always has concerns about authenticity. I am on the fence. I have to say on inspection with a x10 loop there is a lot of craft, more than at first glance. The hide wrap on both items is not unravelled soaked dog chew hide. The hair still in the hide shows considerable preperation. Anybody can cut tassle in leather but I have to say they are very well done, very fine. Making a hole in a flint pebble is not that easy? The clubs on display at the British Museum were of all sizes and shape and size of stone. Many had the most beautiful beadwork on the handles.

There does seem to have been an auction of a Black Pipe Bank state collection, but I can find little info.

My reseach ref- Black Pipe Bank collection, has leed me to this auction house "SHOBE AUCTION & REALTY" I have email them to see if there is any possiblity of information.

[fearn]

It's possible they're genuine, since the wrappings are rawhide and the colors are consistent with what I've read for the Lakota.

That said, it's not hard to fake, and the specimens look a bit clumsy, compared to some of the other swinging clubs.

The real test actually is swinging them (not to hit anything). If the stone head goes where you want it, that's a positive. If it twists all over the place, I'd be more concerned.

Best,

F

[Tim Simmons]

Still undecided, but hurting somebody would be no problem. Some similar concepts of club. I could imagine hitting with the small stone club bringing great honour like the coup stick. I could just in dream land

[laEspadaAncha]

From a dealer's perspective, I would think they are probably a necessity. Tags add a certain panache, a 2-cent provenance that not only frees up the dealer's time (as he or she doesn't have to answer basic attribution-related questions that are addressed by the tags), but IMO provide a certain degree of psychological comfort level for the prospective buyer.

That being said, as you know, you buy the club, not the tag...

Now... I do know one dealer (of a certain TV show fame) who goes a step further and uses antiqued cards with yellowed twine. Every item tag looks as old the as item to which it is attached!

[Tim Simmons]

This is what the auction house says.

Tim:

Yes, we did sell a portion of a collection reputed to be from the Black Pipe collection.

The collector that sold these items said he purchased them in South Dakota. We have not other provenance for the items sold. Only his word.

This is all that I recall about the same.

Hope this is of some help.

Jayson Shobe


So are these pieces from that portion or another? Am I decided they are genuine/authentic? well perhaps I could be. It all depends on what % of people one believes involved in the circle are avaricious toerag liars or honest caring and sharing thats life. One thing is I have learnt much about Native American tanning. I know this material would not need the talents of master art forgers to reproduce. Obviouly I would like to believe they are the real thing. I do know much effort went into these, the chioce of skins. tanning and the hole in the flint stone. If so I got a good deal .

[Lew]

Tim

As far as Native American clubs go I always treat them as fakes due to the fact that real old ones are so rare they are in museums and private collections most go for thousands of dollars. Although the club on the left looks good to me but take the info provided by the seller with a large grain of salt

[VANDOO]

IF GIVEN THE CHOICE I WOULD RATHER HAVE A TAG WITH SOME INFORMATION THAN FOR ANY INFORMATION TO BE OMITED AND LOST. THE INFORMATION ON THE TAGS NOW GOES WITH THESE ITEMS AS THEY TRAVEL ALONG FROM ONE COLLECTOR TO ANOTHER. THE TAGS ARE RECENT BUT THE INFORMATION MAY OR MAY NOT BE CORRECT EVEN IF THEY DID COME FROM THE COLECTION MENTIONED IT DOES NOT MAKE IT CERTIAN THEY ARE AUTHENTIC. MANY MUSEUMS AND COLECTIONS TRIBAL OR OTHERWISE HAVE AQUIRED ITEMS THAT ARE TRIBAL MADE BUT NOT OLD. I HAVE EXAMPLES OF WEAPONS IN MY COLECTION THAT ARE NOT OLD BUT ARE WELL MADE, I CAN'T AFFORD AN OLD EXAMPLE SO SETTLE FOR A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE FORM IF IT IS FAIRLY PRICED.
BOTH OF YOUR CLUBS SHOW GOOD WORKMANSHIP AND FOLLOW TRADITIONAL TECKNIQUES AND MATERIALS IN THEIR CONSTRUCTION. NEITHER ONE IS OF THE MORE ATTRACTIVE FORMS OF AMERICAN WAR CLUBS. THEY ARE THE ONES USUALY FAKED AS THEY BRING MORE MONEY. IT IS LIKELY THE INFORMATION ON THE TAGS IS REAL AS WHO EVER HEARD OF THE COLLECTION BEFORE?? IF IT SAID IT CAME FROM THE MET OR LOUVE I WOULD WORRY MORE.
THESE CLUBS ADD TWO NEW FORMS OF CLUB TO YOUR COLECTION AND LOOK GOOD SO ENJOY

[Billman]

Labels and certificates of provenenace are only worth anything if you know the reputation of the dealer/seller... Even so, reputable dealers get sucked in - see my comments on a Pennsylvanian German billhook (fascine knife) offered for sale in the USA in 2010 that was bought in Germany in 2009...
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...?t=6972&page=2

I have also seen many European edged tools that only date from the mid to late 19th century being sold as medieval, complete with a Certificate of Authenticity.. The shape and the method of manufacture may go back to the Middle Ages - the give away is the maker's stamp... name and village allow a precise dating... Materials are much more difficult to date - late 19th century mild steel was very similar to wrought iron, and in fact wrought iron was still being made as late as the early 20th century (and is being made again in the UK at the Blists Hill Museum at Coalbrookdale). Even in the 21st century, Bernard Solon, in Orléans (France) is forge welding high carbon steel to a softer mild steel body for his vineyard hoes.... He also uses the same name and trademark as his great grandfather, Alexis - a few years' rust and a 21st century tool will be indistinguishable from a mid 19th century one... Not a fake, but a continuation of a family tradition....

[David]

Sorry to still be so doubtful, but doesn't the paint on that second example look just a little bit too fresh to be authentic...

[fearn]

David, if a Lakota craftsman made it on the Rez back not so very long ago, is it genuine or not? I haven't seen anyone suggesting that it's definitely antique.

That's as opposed to me making said stick out of local ingredients, seeing as I'm white and not in South Dakota. Any Lakota club I made would definitely be fake.

Best,

F

[Tim Simmons]

I just say this then I will shut up.

I have looked at the paint and other parts through the magnifing optics on our Puk welding kit, which most be at least x20. The paint, is not of any kind I am used to, sadly I have no idea how to discribe it.
There is a chance that they were collected, not as old. at the turn of the 19th cent and have been stored in boxes? or even under glass for decades? So the paint would look fresh. What about all those mint fresh Asian arms we were shown from the Wallace collection?

[David]

Originally Posted by fearn

David, if a Lakota craftsman made it on the Rez back not so very long ago, is it genuine or not? I haven't seen anyone suggesting that it's definitely antique.
That's as opposed to me making said stick out of local ingredients, seeing as I'm white and not in South Dakota. Any Lakota club I made would definitely be fake.

Sorry Fearn, but i was working under the assumption that Tim was hoping these were antique clubs, not something fresh off the "rez".
I also have not seen any examples of authenticated work that looks anything like this so i a hoping someone finds some images that might verify this for Tim.
I still think this binding work looks pretty sloppy compared to the Native clubs i have seen. That goes for the paint job as well. But i guess not every Native American was a master craftsman. Would love to see anything that can verify this one way or another.

[Nagawarrior]

The label on this Mandaya sword I believe is honest and helps date the item. I traced the name on it to a Kentucky politician that apparently liked to travel at the turn of the last century.





See thread discussing the sword here.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11397

[David]

Originally Posted by Nagawarrior

The label on this Mandaya sword I believe is honest and helps date the item. I traced the name on it to a Kentucky politician that apparently liked to travel at the turn of the last century.





See thread discussing the sword here.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11397

Yes, it does look like a nice old label and you are fortunate that the name is of a prominent politician that was easily traceable. The label of "Indian Natives" is a bit misleading though.

[Nagawarrior]

Originally Posted by David

Yes, it does look like a nice old label and you are fortunate that the name is of a prominent politician that was easily traceable. The label of "Indian Natives" is a bit misleading though.

I think that people back in the day refered to aboriginal peoples from tribal cultures as "indian natives". The North American Tribal people were given the misnomer of "Indian". I believe the explorers thought they had found India.

[David]

Originally Posted by Nagawarrior

I think that people back in the day refered to aboriginal peoples from tribal cultures as "indian natives". The North American Tribal people were given the misnomer of "Indian". I believe the explorers thought they had found India.

Yes, i believe that is why i stated it was misleading...

[aiontay]

My White aunt does a really good job of cutting leather fringe (and rolling it), it looks good on one of my uncle's lances. And hair still on the hide? Doesn't sound too good to me.

[David]

I have to say that the more i search for and look at images of Native American war clubs on the net the more i only see stone heads that are meticulously bound and wrapped to their sticks and not completely slathered in resin as this one is. I would love to see an image of just one authenticated club that is bound like Tim's is before i could consider the authenticity of this one.

[Jeff D]

I don't know if this helps prove or disprove the authenticity of Tim's clubs, but, here are a few from the Glenbow Museum in Calgary Alberta.

Jeff

[David]

Thanks Jeff. Looks like a lot of what i am seeing in these clubs. Not particularly supportive of authenticity for me.

[Tim Simmons]

Well it was only hope. This is the only picture I have from "Indian & Eskimo Artifacts of North America, Charles Mile. I am talking about fine stubs of hair on the rawhide vissable with x10. Sadly I could not take pictures of the varrious types that were on display in the BM.

[David]

Well Tim, if we never took any chances....

[VANDOO]

THERE WERE MANY TRIBES PRESENT IN THE AMERICAS MANY OF WHICH MAY NEVER HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED AS SEPARATE FROM OTHER GROUPS.
THE LIVING STANDARDS RANGED FROM VERY SOPHISTICATED CULTURES TO THOSE WHO WERE POOR AND LIVED NO BETTER THAN THE EARLY ANCESTORS OF MODERN MAN.
THE QUALITY AND NUMBERS OF SURVIVING EXAMPLES OF ARTEFACTS FROM THE POOR TRIBES NO DOUBT DID NOT SURVIVE. COLLECTORS AND MUSEUMS ONLY COLLECTED THE ITEMS THEY ADMIRED BECAUSE OF THE WORKMANSHIP OR THEIR RESPECT FOR THAT TRIBE.
ANOTHER POSSIBILITY IS THAT THESE MAY HAVE BEEN MADE BY THE MUSEUM USING OLD TECKNIQUES AND MATERIALS AS WELL AS NEW ONES TO ILLUSTRATE HOW THEY WERE MADE AND TO LEARN MORE ABOUT CLUBS FROM THAT ERA. THE STONE CLUB HEAD PIERCED THRU THE MIDDLE, LIKE A DONNUT IS SEEN SOME IN SOUTH AMERICA AND NEW GUINEA BUT I AM NOT AWARE OF EXAMPLES FROM NORTH AMERICA. ITS POSSIBLE THEY ARE AROUND I JUST DON'T REMEMBER SEEING THEM THE CLUB HEADS USUALLY ARE GROOVED NOT PIERCED. IF THE BEADS ON THE TASSELS AT THE END OF THAT CLUB ARE MODERN OR PLASTIC OR IF THE RESIN ON THE HEAD OF THE OTHER ONE ARE MODERN PLASTIC RESIN I WOULD SUSPECT THESE WERE MADE FOR STUDY BY SOMEONE IN THE FIELD. EITHER WAY THEY ARE INTERESTING AND NOT MADE TO SCAM OR FOOL ANYONE. IF THAT IS THE CASE IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO FIND,OUT WHICH TRIBES THEY WERE STUDYING.
PICTURES OF A FEW VARIATIONS OF NORTH AMERICAN CLUBS ONE APPEARS TO HAVE A PIERCED HEAD.

[David]

It looks to me from the photos that the rawhide that attaches the stone to the club in the heavily resined example criss-cross right over what i would image would be the striking surface of the club. Does this seem strange to anyone else from a practical perspective?

[Rick]

The thick clear resin looks like polyester or epoxy .

Hot pin test anyone ?

[Tim Simmons]

It has become clear to me that not all is clear as to the construction of this club.
Here are some more telling pictures. I it is best as a couple of reply to keep it simple. Starting with the stone. You will see it is one long stick with a stone held against the long stick. The two are bound together by a plant substance. After binding the club stone is further held secure bya melted layer of tree resin. The resin has gathered dirt and darkend with age. You can see how the colour is still much the same as the tree resin I have melted onto a small flint stone from the garden, seen next to a small lump of resin. You can see how fine the raw hide is, more like parchment.