Bebut sword

carlos · 4th January 2010, 07:44 AM

This is my last adquisition, This bebut sword from Russia. This type of sword aren,y my favourites, but I think the final price was good and finally I decided to bid. When I received sword I put pictures with details.
Thanks
Carlos

http://cgi.ebay.es/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...=STRK:MEWNX:IT

ariel · 4th January 2010, 08:56 AM

Better pics of the stamps on the blade and the scabbard would help. Check the leather: old and damaged vs. artificially aged, the blade ( too intact for a WWI weapon?) and the handle ( old wood vs. new staining).
99% of bebuts these days are made in India and China.
Sorry for the jaded view, but the contemporary market is brutal.

TKV · 4th January 2010, 02:49 PM

I think original item. M1907 type I.

ariel · 4th January 2010, 05:19 PM

Hope you are correct, but how can one be sure without decent pics of the stamps? I, for one, cannot read the inscriptions at all.

klewang · 4th January 2010, 05:40 PM

These are military issued? And were weapons like this standard issued with these kind of scabbards?
The scabbard looks a bit like a modified and shortened klewang (the Dutch military ones) version.

regards

TKV · 4th January 2010, 07:06 PM

These were officially issued by Zlatoust (most of them), Izhevsk (bow and arrow mark) and Artinsk russian weapons' factories.

TKV · 4th January 2010, 07:08 PM

2 Ariel: chinese and indian fakes are very bright and clean, and item's blade has original patina.

ariel · 4th January 2010, 11:32 PM

Aging steel blade is a piece of cake, they do it all the time.
You might be 100% right, but - no disrespect ! - I want to see the markings.
One thing is already making my antennae twitch: no markings on the upper scabbard fitting.

If I were the owner, I'd send good pics to a russian forum: some of these guys are incredibly knowledgeable and frightfully paranoid ( from daily exposure to bitter reality).

Marc · 5th January 2010, 11:49 AM

Ok, coming from someone not familiar at all with this particular model, but with some experience in fakes... yes, ageing metals is easy, which, coupled with less than ideal pics gets the job done.
Given the quality of the actual pictures and my level of familiarity with the model I don't dare to pass a judgement about the finer features or the lack of the usual brass fitting around the "guard", but I would like to point out a detail from my experience with other pieces: using a sharp instrument (knife, cutter, etc...) to add some wear to a leather or wood scabbard is a common practise. Usually it's done hitting it in a semi-random way. Overdoing it it's also fairly common, and tends to be a hint for a closer look. In this case, the scabbard is covered by marks from a sharp instrument, quite extensively, and quite homogenously, included the side that would be worn facing the body (see pic).
Again, let me be clear, I'm not passing any judgement. I can't: I haven't enough data. But, again, except in the most blissful cases, the signs that make us decide if an object is genuine or not are anything but clear and evident. More often than not, it's the accumulation of small details what makes us decide against a piece's authenticity. When there's enough lights in the board which are blinking red, we take a decision and call it "instinct", "nose" or "experience". It's normally well-applied accumulated knowledge, but it's sometimes hard to define or verbalize.
I just wanted to raise a flag that I feel deserves to be up, a call for, maybe, a pause and a deeper thought, that 's all.
Happy new year to all

Dmitry · 5th January 2010, 01:54 PM

This is an original M1907 bebut, not a copy. You've gotten quite an excellent deal on this piece!

ariel · 5th January 2010, 09:42 PM

I just read the original description by the seller... :-) :-)
It is so moronic, that the piece is likely to be authentic...
Congrats, you got yourself a steal!

Dmitry · 5th January 2010, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I just read the original description by the seller... :-) :-)
It is so moronic, that the piece is likely to be authentic...
Congrats, you got yourself a steal!

What is so "moronic" about his/her description?

CIVIL WAR SWORD /KNIFE
This may be from Indian war, it has 1910 and emblem on 1 side a couple of letters on other. case has brass on tip about 3" with a ball on end and 2 straps at top it is sharp, do not believe its a replica.

And by the way, this piece does date to the Civil War, the Russian one...

ariel · 6th January 2010, 01:33 AM

Civil Indian War? Yup, Reds against Whites would describe both quite nicely:-)

Dmitry · 6th January 2010, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Civil Indian War? Yup, Reds against Whites would describe both quite nicely:-)

Excuse me, but -
От Москвы до Британских Морей
Красная Армия всех сильней.

That goes for India as well.

carlos · 24th January 2010, 02:10 PM

Few days ago I have received sword and I think is real bebut sword, not copy,the patiba in handle seems good and marks too.
I wait your opinions.
thanks in advance
carlos

ariel · 24th January 2010, 05:18 PM

Looks OK to me

4th January 2010, 07:44 AM	#1
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 737	Bebut sword This is my last adquisition, This bebut sword from Russia. This type of sword aren,y my favourites, but I think the final price was good and finally I decided to bid. When I received sword I put pictures with details. Thanks Carlos http://cgi.ebay.es/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...=STRK:MEWNX:IT Attached Images

5th January 2010, 11:49 AM	#9
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Ok, coming from someone not familiar at all with this particular model, but with some experience in fakes... yes, ageing metals is easy, which, coupled with less than ideal pics gets the job done. Given the quality of the actual pictures and my level of familiarity with the model I don't dare to pass a judgement about the finer features or the lack of the usual brass fitting around the "guard", but I would like to point out a detail from my experience with other pieces: using a sharp instrument (knife, cutter, etc...) to add some wear to a leather or wood scabbard is a common practise. Usually it's done hitting it in a semi-random way. Overdoing it it's also fairly common, and tends to be a hint for a closer look. In this case, the scabbard is covered by marks from a sharp instrument, quite extensively, and quite homogenously, included the side that would be worn facing the body (see pic). Again, let me be clear, I'm not passing any judgement. I can't: I haven't enough data. But, again, except in the most blissful cases, the signs that make us decide if an object is genuine or not are anything but clear and evident. More often than not, it's the accumulation of small details what makes us decide against a piece's authenticity. When there's enough lights in the board which are blinking red, we take a decision and call it "instinct", "nose" or "experience". It's normally well-applied accumulated knowledge, but it's sometimes hard to define or verbalize. I just wanted to raise a flag that I feel deserves to be up, a call for, maybe, a pause and a deeper thought, that 's all. Happy new year to all Attached Images

24th January 2010, 02:10 PM	#15
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 737	New picture Few days ago I have received sword and I think is real bebut sword, not copy,the patiba in handle seems good and marks too. I wait your opinions. thanks in advance carlos Attached Images

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4th January 2010, 08:56 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Better pics of the stamps on the blade and the scabbard would help. Check the leather: old and damaged vs. artificially aged, the blade ( too intact for a WWI weapon?) and the handle ( old wood vs. new staining). 99% of bebuts these days are made in India and China. Sorry for the jaded view, but the contemporary market is brutal.

4th January 2010, 02:49 PM	#3
TKV Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 32	I think original item. M1907 type I.

4th January 2010, 05:19 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Hope you are correct, but how can one be sure without decent pics of the stamps? I, for one, cannot read the inscriptions at all.

4th January 2010, 05:40 PM	#5
klewang Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 23	These are military issued? And were weapons like this standard issued with these kind of scabbards? The scabbard looks a bit like a modified and shortened klewang (the Dutch military ones) version. regards

4th January 2010, 07:06 PM	#6
TKV Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 32	These were officially issued by Zlatoust (most of them), Izhevsk (bow and arrow mark) and Artinsk russian weapons' factories.

4th January 2010, 07:08 PM	#7
TKV Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 32	2 Ariel: chinese and indian fakes are very bright and clean, and item's blade has original patina.

4th January 2010, 11:32 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Aging steel blade is a piece of cake, they do it all the time. You might be 100% right, but - no disrespect ! - I want to see the markings. One thing is already making my antennae twitch: no markings on the upper scabbard fitting. If I were the owner, I'd send good pics to a russian forum: some of these guys are incredibly knowledgeable and frightfully paranoid ( from daily exposure to bitter reality).

5th January 2010, 01:54 PM	#10
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	This is an original M1907 bebut, not a copy. You've gotten quite an excellent deal on this piece!

5th January 2010, 09:42 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I just read the original description by the seller... :-) :-) It is so moronic, that the piece is likely to be authentic... Congrats, you got yourself a steal!

6th January 2010, 01:33 AM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Civil Indian War? Yup, Reds against Whites would describe both quite nicely:-)

24th January 2010, 05:18 PM	#16
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Looks OK to me