Katzbalgers and Related Landsknecht Swords

[Matchlock]

A good South German Korbdegen, ca. 1550, preserved at Schloss Braunfels, Northern Germany.

Photos taken in 2004, copyright by the author.

m

[Matchlock]

A very fine and rare South German Estoc (Panzerstecher), ca. 1500, the blade struck with an orb and cross mark, preserved at Schloss Braunfels, Northern Germany.

Photos 2004, copyright by the author.

m

[Matchlock]

From only recently recovered colored leaves.

Mostly from flickr.com, with thanks to the original posters there.

m

[cornelistromp]

from the new publication of Jan Piet Puype & Harm Stevens
Arms And Armour of knights and landsknechts in the netherlands Army Museum.

[cornelistromp]

some more.

[Matchlock]

Great, Cornelis,

Thank you so much!

I just ordered my copy of that publication.

Best,
Michael

[Samik]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

A very fine and rare South German Estoc (Panzerstecher), ca. 1500, the blade struck with an orb and cross mark, preserved at Schloss Braunfels, Northern Germany.

Thanks Michael for posting this beauty!

A bit of a silly question but would you happen to know if the piece was for use on foot (as in armored fighting) or for equestrian combat? Our hussar did carry similar pieces a decade or so later but with a shorter grip ( I do think the hilt on the stecher you posted is at least "hand-and-a-half" .. assuming my eyes are not decieving me )

Cheers,
Samuel

[Matchlock]

Hi Samuel,

Exactly, this is a hand-and-a-half estoc and too long for foot combat. Estocs usually were equestrians weapons to thrust from horseback against foot soldiers.

Cheers, and best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Ca. 1515, preserved in perfect patina all over.

Author's color photos.

[Matchlock]

A knight with his Katzbalger, ca. 1510.

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

from the new publication of Jan Piet Puype & Harm Stevens
Arms And Armour of knights and landsknechts in the netherlands Army Museum.

Hi Jasper,

I hope you don't mind my re-attaching better quality scans of these unusually fine items, together with the informative texts.

The first Katzbalger dates of ca. 1515-20, next there is a sample of ca. 1540 but please note that the blade is from a rapier of ca. 1590-1600.
The excavated find is a rare Katzbalger saber (I don't really think it should be called cutlass) of ca. 1535.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

These two Landsknecht daggers in the Legermuseum range among the finest I have ever seen.

For the first I would suggest a date of almost exactly 1500, the other might be a decade or so younger.

Best,
m

[Matchlock]

Sold Thomas Del Mar, in association with Sotheby's, Dec 8, 2010, incorrectly dated 'late 16th c.' in the description.

Best,
Michael

[machinist]

What a glorious twohander!
Running wolf and all!

[Matchlock]

And preserved in virtually 'untouched', heavily olive oil patinated condition as well!

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Enjoy!

m

[Matchlock]

Please also see my threads

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14115

and

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht+hand+swords


Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

This is the best thread ever!

Thank you so much, Dmitry,
I have to admit I am sort of proud of it myself.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Sold Thomas Del Mar, in association with Sotheby's, Dec 8, 2010, incorrectly dated 'late 16th c.' in the description.

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

I think this lot remained unsold, I had a look at it after the auction but did not 'like" it.

best,

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,

You're right, of course; it should read 'failed to sell'.
Apart from that: well, I dislike the leather on the grip but on the other hand, I wasn't there to handle it. So your knowledge on this is doubtlessly more profound than mine.

Thanks, and best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

I've got a nice contribution of a grosses messer, a discovery found in the soil of Bavaria (your backyard?) "Dreieck" Hauzenstein, Liebergen und Haslach near the eastern way Regensburg - Nittenau.
With this knife is a belt hook with a Nuremberg mark and chape found.
the belt hook is very interesting because it has a system with a spring and a plate to fix the sword.
The condition has been excavated, but as single handed Messers are very rare, I'm happy with it.
remains of the original wooden handle and wooden Pflockniete (rivets) are available.


best from holland,

[Matchlock]

Hi Jasper,

Nice item you've acquired there, congratulations!

Actually it was not exactly excavated in my backyard but some 40 km northwest from where I live. Of course I know that region very well as I used to study and afterwards live in Regensburg for almost 25 years.

It's really well preserved, with no yellowish, aggressive salt points visible on the images.

The combination with the belt hook is highly remarkable too, as well as the fact that the latter is Nuremberg marked, and left of this there seems to be another coat of arms, probably the one of Bavaria.

What I would be interested to learn: could you please give us the overall length, blade length and width of blade at the quillons?
Is this the original bottom mount of the sheath right near the tip of the blade?

Thanks a lot for sharing,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

well almost your backyard then.
all the parts are found together also the chape.
remarkable because in most images Messer are worn with out any sheath.
also a picture of the belt hook with spring to secure the plate.

The measurements are:
the sword allover: 80,5 cm
the blade length/width: 67,0 cm / 4,2 cm
blade is single edged wit a fuller at both sides.
the crossguard: 22,5 cm
the ring in diameter: 7,0 cm / 4 cm

best,

[Matchlock]

Thank you so much again, Jasper!

This one is a really fine and well documented find!

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Thank you Michael,

Yes, I bought it from a German gentlemen, it is known that Germans are generally somewhat more precise in detail.

BTW did you ever see such a messer for single hand use.
The longer 2 hand Messers are known, but here the grip is a little longer for single hand- or 1 1/2 hand use.
probably this extra length is needed only to counterbalance the light blade enough, i/o a pommel/counterweight.

best,

[mrwizard]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

BTW did you ever see such a messer for single hand use.
The longer 2 hand Messers are known, but here the grip is a little longer for single hand- or 1 1/2 hand use.

The Messer "ZEF 4" documented on this site seems to be made
for single hand or 1 1/2 use:
http://www.zornhau.de/dinkelsbuhl-first-steel/#more-92

Single hand figthing styles for the Messer are described in
Lecküchner, H: Kunst des Messerfechtens (CGM 582), 1482
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/...002184/images/

Best Regards,
Thilo

[fernando]

BTW, Michl ... and others .
Are you aware of this publication?
Nice swords here. All examples with full technical data.
Pity (for me) is written in german .
... But the illustrations are universal, though .

.

[Matchlock]

Hi 'Nando,

Of course, the Schneider/Stüber book on edged weapons from the Zurich arsenal has been in my library for some 30 years and has often seen reference.

I'd like to add that the measurements, too, are internationally understood.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by mrwizard

The Messer "ZEF 4" documented on this site seems to be made
for single hand or 1 1/2 use:
http://www.zornhau.de/dinkelsbuhl-first-steel/#more-92

Single hand figthing styles for the Messer are described in
Lecküchner, H: Kunst des Messerfechtens (CGM 582), 1482
http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/...002184/images/

Best Regards,
Thilo

Hi Thilo,

As I am very much aware of the 'source' whereafter that engaged young guy builds his replicas, I have become very reserved ... there are way too many fakes around originating from that very same 'source'.

Best,
Michael

[mrwizard]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

As I am very much aware of the 'source' whereafter that engaged young guy builds his replicas, I have become very reserved ... there are way too many fakes around originating from that very same 'source'.

Hi Michael,
Thanks for the remarks about the 'source' of the weapons.
I didn't know (or even suspect) that it was questionable.

Regarding the intentions of the people whose website i linked to:
While i am aware that documenting weapons to build replicas as close to the
original as possible is problematic from a collectors perspective,
i am *very* sure these people won't sell fakes to anyone.

Best Regards,
Thilo