keris and spirit

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for your response, Pusaka.

I was afraid that you may have misunderstood the direction and intent of my comments, as I used the word "element" to refer to an element of a philosophy, and then you used the word "element" to refer to physical, rather than abstract concepts.

I now understand that you were making a broad ranging comment on universal cultural values.

Thank you

[sepokal]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Dear Mr Rahman & Hana,

About that thread in kampungnet, don't worry, it's all in the past. No hard feeling .

Actually, me & Sepokal were continuously attacked by a few forumites before we eventually had to defend ourselves and retaliated. I cant provide the link here as the thread was dumped into the rubbish bin, but if I remember correctly, I was accused of being the follower of paganism / jahiliyyah, Hinduistic, unislamic, a complete idiot and so on. Like David said, respecting other people's personal belief by giving arguments academically and without attacking other people's personality is the key of ethics in a forum. The one thing internet communication is, it's world wide, world without border. There is no way that a forum on internet should be targeted to certain types of people only, otherwise I would have told them that they had no business being in the sub-forum "keris collecting" as they had no respect to the keris.

Enough has been said, lets continue with the topic.

Dear Penangsang, it is rather sad to know such thing exist but that is how it is. As a Muslim, dua kalimah syahadah is essential in our life. Putting things where they belong is Justice or in Malay we call it Adil (Meletakkan sesuatu di tempatnya). Zalim is when you do not put things to where they belongs. Hence, as a Muslim, Awalluddin Makrifatullah, is very important. The foremost in religion, is knowing Allah swt. Everything in this world is "makhluk". Respecting it in due respect is important. Why? Because we are all His creation. Respecting must come from understanding and knowing what you are respecting...another word, knowledge. When people starts to talk about mystical thing, please remember, Awalludin Makrifatullah. Now, as a Muslim, the knowledge came to us through our dearest and most loved Prophet, Rasulullah saaw. Hence, putting him at a place where he should not be, is Zalim and that itself, requires us as a Muslim to correct those who don't know, to know and gain knowledge, be it Muslim or non Muslim. Not doing this, is considered zalim. Rasulullah must never be misplaced. Even when discussing keris and mysticism, (especially that of Malay keris), Islam can never be separated from it.

Nevertheless, I've come a long way threading this path and a few hiccups will not stop me going. Believe it or not, I've met people who claimed that Malaikat bernafsu, hence, right now, it seems that nothing can surprise me anymore....especially when that experience where Rasulullah is not up to par to gain the knowledge of kashaf!!!

There is this story though, told to me by a pandai keris (in Malaysia). Regarding a fight between two warriors, one of that of Malay (maybe Patani) and another of Javanese. Both fight their very best, and they realise that both of them, can't harm each other with their keris due to both of them are Kebal. Hence, this Malay hulubalang set a standard where he told his nemesis, that if they were to continue fighting, it should be that both of them, should fight naked. The Javanese warrior doesn't want to do that, simply because, his kebal is due to him wearing an azimat, while the kebal of the Malay hulubalang is that of amalan. I know this might be wrongly interpreted by some forumers, especially that of Javenese origin. This story is not about who is stronger than who. My point is, the best of keris (to me), is that of amalan, not of "dampingan".... Hence, for Malays, keris must never be separated from amalan and religion and foremost for Malay's Keris is knowing that it is a weapon, not an artistic expression and being a weapon, it's job is to kill when requested to. Not doing that, is considered Zalim (tidak meletakkan sesuatu di tempatnya). Hence, Malay keris that is considered lucky are those that protects it's owner's life when in danger. That luck comes from a certain part of the Malay Keris which is very much attached to Islam. Many a name given to parts of the Malay keris is with knowledge of understanding the need of a weapon that does not stray away from Islam
Cracks for Malay Keris on certain location symbolises the amalan that was fused into the keris until the metal decided to show in term of "isyarat" through cracks.

Nevertheless, dampingan is not wrong to me (depending on certain conditions). Simply because, when we were born, we were born not alone (for those who knows) and Allah swt does not do things without good reasons.

Allah Hafiz
sepokal toh putih.

[Rick]

I would hate to see old arguments had on another forum be reborn or even referred to here .

Gentlemen; please tread carefully lest this wonderful thread be permanently closed .

Thanks

[David]

Originally Posted by sepokal

dua kalimah syahadah, Adil (Meletakkan sesuatu di tempatnya), Awalluddin Makrifatullah, "makhluk", Malaikat bernafsu, kashaf, Kebal, hulubalang, azimat, amalan, "dampingan", tidak meletakkan sesuatu di tempatnya, "isyarat"

C'mon Sepokal, you should know the terms of this forum by now. I do recognize a couple of these terms and i might be able to infer the meanings of a couple of others through your usage, but this is very clearly an English forum and if we are truly all going to understand each other it is imperative that we all communicate in a common language. I have no problem with other lamguages (in fact i encourage them) as long as an accurate translation is also provided. You host is, afterall, this English speaking forum. To do anything else would show the greatest disrespect.
As for what i clearly understand in your last post i will say this...Clearly there is more than just the Islamic interpretation of keris to be considered here. It was a Hindu weapon long before the coming of Islam to the region and before that its traditions may have been even more indigenous and animistic, traditions whose current continued through keris culture to this very day. I genuinely respect anyone"s way of relating to the keris in the spiritual tradition of their choice so your imperative to "correct" those who do not do this as you or Islam sees fit worries me greatly. Likewise you assertion that discussions of the keris and mysticism cannot be seperated from Islam is troublesome for me. This has been, IMO, a long and fruitful thread which i would like to see continue, but make no mistake, if the conversation degrades into a battle of religions and dogma i will shut it down in a heartbeat.
I am sorry if i may have misunderstood the underlying intention of your post, but if i have it only serves to demonstrate the ultimate importance of complete translations to assure everyone has a full understanding of the concepts being discussed.
Likewise, as Rick has already stated, old arguments from other forums need to stay there and not be brought into this forum.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by sepokal

Hence, for Malays, keris must never be separated from amalan and religion and foremost for Malay's Keris is knowing that it is a weapon, not an artistic expression and being a weapon, it's job is to kill when requested to.

Hmmm... your opinion seems absolute. I believe, it's the hand that guides the keris to do its intended task. Not an artistic expression? I beg to differ... if you choose to venture into it's simple-looking, sub-lime looks... you'll find the artistic expression, imho.

Originally Posted by sepokal

Hence, Malay keris that is considered lucky are those that protects it's owner's life when in danger.

I agree about the lucky part, but it does apply to all keris in general, though.

Originally Posted by sepokal

That luck comes from a certain part of the Malay Keris which is very much attached to Islam. Many a name given to parts of the Malay keris is with knowledge of understanding the need of a weapon that does not stray away from Islam

A question: Why do certain Malays still regards that the Majapahit keris, have a strong supernatural element?

Majapahit is a Javanese-Hindu kingdom, it's empus are Hindus too. Many symbolism in the keris are Hindu inspired. Most likely the 'beings' within are too... (speculating).

Keris in the Malayan Peninsular have many influences from different belief system... the malay keris are likewise...

I find it rather disturbing... emphasizing that keris is Islamic.
What I do believe... names can be changed... ideals modified to follow suit...
For those whom are of different belief system, one would treat the keris within their own cultural/religious context...

Originally Posted by sepokal

Cracks for Malay Keris on certain location symbolises the amalan that was fused into the keris until the metal decided to show in term of "isyarat" through cracks.

Hmmm... in my opinion, this is make belief. When a smith is unable to forge properly a blade, this might be the excuse... imo only... hmmm.
Alan, you've made keris blades, care to elaborate, please?

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for the invite Alam Shah, but I'm going to stay out of this one.

Being a man who loves peace, and having a personal life that requires me to co-exist in harmony with Muslims, Taoists, Buddhists, Russian Orthodox, and devout atheists, I have learnt that debate about anything that somebody else firmly believes is a total waste of time.

All religions are belief systems.

I will walk 20 miles to avoid any sort of debate that touches on religion.

My response to all of Sepokal's post would simply be that he is entitled to believe whatever he wishes to believe. There is no profit for any of us in arguing for a different point of view.

[sepokal]

Dear David,

Please don't misinterpret me. First and foremost, the idea or concept that keris came from Hinduism can be contested. Many researchers of keris have stated that although, by default, it is recognised that keris originated or is inspired from Hinduism, but they were unable to prove otherwise. Hence, they presume through Candi Sukor Relief that Keris originated from Hinduism. If one were to look at the History of Patani and you might realised that Islam have came long before 1400. In fact, there are documents that states that Islam have arrived to this region as early as the third Khalif, which is Khalifah Osman. Keris is part of Patani's culture back then. In fact, it is used by the famous Wali Songo in their mission to spread Islam to this part of Asia. There are reasons to belief the forefathers of most of the Wali Songo, in which most of them are related to, was Sheikh Jamadil Al Kubra. He was very much active, during his time, in Patani (early 1300). Hence, to state for a fact that Keris originated from Hinduism just because of a relief discovered at Candi Sukor (dated 1400 plus) is still not strong enough.

As most of the forumers are more comfortable talking about keris and Hinduism, I don't see any reason why forumers should be uncomfortable to keris and Islam. Nevertheless, I understand that most of the forumers are discussing keris based on Javanese Keris hence, it is understandable when most reference book would be discussing Javanese keris as compared to Malay Keris. It is also understandable that, history wise, it will be based on these books too.

Regarding old argument, it's bygone, long time ago. Please don't close this thread as I have no intention to bring any old argument into this forum. Don't worry, if there are any who would like to challenge or create havoc in this forum, I'm sure the relevant people knows how to handle this. On my part, my writing is sincerely a must for my friends and those who knows.

Currently, I'm not into forum anymore. It just happen that my friend Penangsang requested from this forum my views and I did my best to explain. If anyone find my writings rather offensive, my apologies and you are welcome to delete it.

If you notice, I've not written in this forum, for like...forever, not until recently. There's is just too much to write about Malay Keris and it's mysticism. Unfortunately, (or rather fortunately), I'm more towards Malay Keris and it's hidden secrets. Malay keris is very much related to Islam. Hence, due to that fact I guess, probably it is not appropriate for me to discuss it here, where most are more familiar with Javanese keris. Again, my apologies.

[Alam Shah]

Hmmm... I guess I'll take a walk in the other direction...
To each their own...

[sepokal]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hmmm... your opinion seems absolute. I believe, it's the hand that guides the keris to do its intended task. Not an artistic expression? I beg to differ... if you choose to venture into it's simple-looking, sub-lime looks... you're find the artistic expression, imho.

I agree about the lucky part, but it does apply to all keris in general, though.

A question: Why do certain Malays still regards that the Majapahit keris, have a strong supernatural element?

Majapahit is a Javanese-Hindu kingdom, it's empus are Hindus too. Many symbolism in the keris are Hindu inspired. Most likely the 'beings' within are too... (speculating).

Keris in the Malayan Peninsular have many influences from different belief system... the malay keris are likewise...

I find it rather disturbing... emphasizing that keris is Islamic.
What I do believe... names are changed... ideals are modified to follow suit...
For those whom are of different belief system, one would treat the keris within their own cultural/religious context...

Hmmm... im my opinion, this is make belief. When a smith is unable to forge properly a blade, this might be the excuse... imo only... hmmm.

Alan, you've made keris blades, care to elaborate, please?

Dear Alam Shah,

Again I reiterate, it is not the artistic form that come first into making a Malay keris. First and foremost, it is a weapon. Artistic impression and artistitic interpretation is based on those who views it and as they say, Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. What you call artistic, is not to some. While you consider the extreme curves on a keris to be beautiful, some might not view it so.

Regarding Keris Majapahit. Have you ever seen a real keris Majapahit? Read again what Bambang says about keris Majapahit / Keris Sajen.

"Keris sajen dibuat khusus untuk keperluan sesaji tetapi ada yang menyebutnya sebagai keris Majapahit padahal keris Majapahit bentuknya indah dan mutunya tinggi, tidak sederhana seperti keris Sajen."

in English, "Keris Sajen is made especially for "sesaji" but some calls it Keris Majapahit while that is not so as keris Majapahit is much more beautiful and of higher quality as compared to keris Sesaji".

My question is, then, what really is keris Majapahit? How does it looks like?

The last Majapahit kingdom was located in what we called Kelantan right now. There is nothing disturbing about Islam and Keris. Why is such thoughts, exist I wonder? Disturbing to Islam or that to Keris?


Alam Shah, pamor that exist in most Javanese keris are based on made belief too. I guess, it will always be part and parcel of keris lovers to go through this "made belief" stories.

Regards,
sepokal

[sepokal]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks for the invite Alam Shah, but I'm going to stay out of this one.

Being a man who loves peace, and having a personal life that requires me to co-exist in harmony Muslims, Taoists, Buddhists, Russian Orthodox, and devout atheists, I have learnt that debate about anything that somebody else firmly believes is a total waste of time.

All religions are belief systems.

I will walk 20 miles to avoid any sort of debate that touches on religion.

My response to all of Sepokal's post would simply be that he is entitled to believe whatever he wishes to believe. There is no profit for any of us in arguing for a different point of view.

A path that should be taken by everyone. There is no harm done here I hope, because what I just did was to write accordingly to what was known to me and what was enquired.

Regards,
sepokal

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by sepokal

... Again I reiterate, it is not the artistic form that come first into making a Malay keris. First and foremost, it is a weapon.

Greetings sepokal...
Hmmm... I re-read through my post again and I was wondering... did I ever mentioned or imply that artistic form comes first? Please re-read my post... what I've said was... if you look you'll find an artistic expression... crude but it's there. Keris in the Malay world is first and foremost a weapon, period.

Originally Posted by sepokal

Artistic impression and artistitic interpretation is based on those who views it and as they say, Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. What you call artistic, is not to some. While you consider the extreme curves on a keris to be beautiful, some might not view it so.

True, beauty is in the eye of the beholder... so don't assume what I deem as beautiful... If other do not find it artistic, so be it... no harm done. Each is entitled to their own opinion.

Originally Posted by sepokal

Regarding Keris Majapahit. Have you ever seen a real keris Majapahit? Read again what Bambang says about keris Majapahit / Keris Sajen.

"Keris sajen dibuat khusus untuk keperluan sesaji tetapi ada yang menyebutnya sebagai keris Majapahit padahal keris Majapahit bentuknya indah dan mutunya tinggi, tidak sederhana seperti keris Sajen."

in English, "Keris Sajen is made especially for "sesaji" but some calls it Keris Majapahit while that is not so as keris Majapahit is much more beautiful and of higher quality as compared to keris Sesaji".

I suggest you don't inscribe what was mentioned in Ensiklopedi Keris into stone. Take it with a large dose of salt.

Originally Posted by sepokal

My question is, then, what really is keris Majapahit? How does it looks like?

Maybe you should ask Javanese collectors... Pak Ganjawulung and Hidayat comes to mind...

Originally Posted by sepokal

The last Majapahit kingdom was located in what we called Kelantan right now.

Hmmm... interesting... sorry my history is a bit 'rusty'. Perhaps someone else would like to comment...

Originally Posted by sepokal

There is nothing disturbing about Islam and Keris. Why is such thoughts, exist I wonder? Disturbing to Islam or that to Keris?

Hmmm... kindly re-read my post and try to understand it, please.

[PenangsangII]

Dear Kerislovers,

To say that keris comes from Hindu / Animistic culture per se is not quite accurate. If my mind serves correctly, Hinduism came to the Indian continent from the Aryans diasphora, and the present day true Aryans are Farsi people (people of Iran). So, there's a possibility that keris culture was brought to the Malay Archipelago by Iskandar Zulkarnaen (King Darius I) descendants after they had embraced Islam. In another word, It could also be Persian / Islamic Culture imbued in the early Islamic Malay kingdom of Champa in the 12th C. Thus the spiritual aspects are also partly Islamic. Just my 0.02 cents.

Warmest Salam & regards,

Penangsang

[David]

Sepokal, i hope you will go back, re-read what i and others have said, and try to find a better understanding in it.
Nowhere do i even suggest that it is inappropriate to discuss Malay keris (due to it's connection to Islam) nor am i uncomfortable with the discussion of keris and Islam either. In fact i encourage such discussion as it is obvious that in much of Indonesian and on the peninsula the keris is considered an Islamic weapon. I personally do not believe that the keris originates in Islam however. I did not say that i believe it originates in Hinduism either, though this is probably in my mind. I am even willing to entertain the notion that the keris pre-dates the influences of both these great religions. What i am not willing to entertain is debate on which is the "correct" religious or spiritual path from which to approach the keris from. Why this idea should translate in your mind into the idea that we do not or should not discuss Islam and the keris here remains a mystery to me. You are most certainly welcome to your own beliefs and to state them clearly in this forum. I certainly find nothing offensive about your beliefs or Islam in general (nor other belief systems for that matter). But what you wrote gave me the impression that you are not so tolerant of the beliefs of others that may be different form your own. Please forgive me is i have the wrong impression. Dogmatic thought that implies that your spiritual beliefs are somehow more "correct" than others will not be welcomed here. As Alan suggests, these are debates which cannot be won by any side and only leave the debaters angry with one another. They are wars not worth fighting and they wil not be fought on this forum. Period!
I do suggest that if you want to communicate your ideas here better that you start by providing English translation to the terms and phrases that i listed at the beginning of my last post. It will go a long way in breaking down any barriers of misunderstanding that may have formed between us.
As for Mojopahit keris, there have been numerous published examples of these keris and i am sure someone can provide you with so pictures soon.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Dear Kerislovers,

To say that keris comes from Hindu / Animistic culture per se is not quite accurate. If my mind serves correctly, Hinduism came to the Indian continent from the Aryans diasphora, and the present day true Aryans are Farsi people (people of Iran). So, there's a possibility that keris culture was brought to the Malay Archipelago by Iskandar Zulkarnaen (King Darius I) descendants after they had embraced Islam.

Hmmm... fuzzy history... are there any archaeological findings, weapons of such nature or even one that resembles the keris... their weapons making methods during that period suggests otherwise...

In another word, It could also be Persian / Islamic Culture imbued in the early Islamic Malay kingdom of Champa in the 12th C. Thus the spiritual aspects are also partly Islamic. Just my 0.02 cents.

If this is the case, why is there no legacy of such a weapon found around that region... hmmm...

[Alam Shah]

Just to set the record straight... I did not mention that keris is of Hindu origin. What I mentioned was Majapahit kerises are made during the Hindu period... Please read carefully...
Keris exist before that time as we've known already...

[Pusaka]

I personally don’t believe that the keris has its roots as an Islamic weapon. If someone suggested to me that Stonehenge was built by Christians I would likewise disagree.
I think there is more evidence that points towards an vedic origin than an Islamic origin. It is true that the Vedic culture was introduced to India by the Aryans so maybe the keris has an Aryan origin?

[HanaChu69]

Greetings,

I agree that it’s great to exchange ideas but it looks like Tsunami has hit this thread…

Sepokal – I believe in “universal cultural keris values”. Appreciate if you could elaborate philosophy of the Malay keris for better understanding complete with referencing link (if any). Others may not be able to relate them in comparison to the Javanese keris. Some might be too busy to take the effort to read up on cultural values of the keris world.

Rick – I guess there’s no reason to panic. It’s only robust verbal discussion and not using keris or spiritual battle field. I’m sure that we will be able to forgive and forget with due respect of the coming New Year (Hari Raya Puasa).

David – I would like to highlight that sometimes it is difficult to translate Malay or Islamic terms to the English Language. The meaning and idea may get distorted. Viewers might get the wrong perception. This applies to other languages for one word can take you more than 10 sentences to elaborate including examples.

Pusaka – I like your creative thinking for always giving us time to reflect, pause and ponder. How did you derive with the above theory? Is there any correlation with Penangsang postings in the patrem thread? Is it possible for you to provide us with the factual referencing links?

Sincerely,
Hana

P.S – The beauty of universal languages will enable you to open gates of the respective culture and values with your eyes wide open….Amazing indeed!!

[Rick]

Originally Posted by HanaChu69

Rick – I guess there’s no reason to panic. It’s only robust verbal discussion and not using keris or spiritual battle field. I’m sure that we will be able to forgive and forget with due respect of the coming New Year (Hari Raya Puasa).

Thanks for your concern dear Hana ; I've been doing this too many years to panic.

I simply watch and warn.... and keep a bucket of water handy .

With respect to the use of other languages in here; I feel very strongly that translations must be given;even if it is merely the gist of the idea otherwise people may feel ... uncomfortable not knowing what is being said .

People like the Moderators.

Warmest wishes,

Rick

[David]

Hana, thank you for your thoughtful post. I do, of course, agree with you that it isn't always easy to translate words and concepts from one cultural reality to another. But if it takes 10 word or 10 paragraphs to successfully translate an idea it must be done, otherwise why bother writing it to begin with. What is written in this forum must be useful to all, not just a select few who understand the terms being thrown about. While ideas my get distorted from time to time it is better than half the audience or more having absolutely no understanding of the terms being used. I am afraid that if we are going to come to any understanding we must make the effort to translate no matter how difficult it may seem.

[Pusaka]

Pusaka – I like your creative thinking for always giving us time to reflect, pause and ponder.

Well that is most refreshing to know

How did you derive with the above theory?

Firstly I know that the keris was in Indonesia before the coming of Islam so if it was in Indonesia before the coming of Islam then it would make one think that its origins cant be Islamic.

Secondly if we were to study weapons in the homeland of Islam will we see anything that could at a later date have mutated into a keris? Is there a tradition of using pamor in those weapons. Is there a tradition of using meteorite in those weapons.

Thirdly art, what dose Islamic art look like? Dose it permit the depiction of nature in art. I recall reading that one of the first observations of a keris in Indonesia records a straight blade with a bone handle carved in the form of a human. The human form handle is also displayed in the earliest keris. Is this something that we would expect to see in Islamic art, the literal depiction of the human form?
Nagas, elephants, winged horses, dragons, birds are these things we would expect to see in Islamic art or Indian art? If we look at Islamic art do we see any of those things depicted literally?

Fourthly, make a study of ancient Vedic art and weapons and you might find images that make you ponder.

Fifthly the rituals that surround the keris, making weapons with supposed spirits trapped inside, is that even permitted in the Islamic religion, the use of spirits?

Is there any correlation with Penangsang postings in the patrem thread?

No I have not read that thread yet, but will do so.

Is it possible for you to provide us with the factual referencing links?

No its no more possible for me to prove that the keris is of Indian/Aryan origin any more than it is possible for someone to prove that the keris is an Islamic weapon. In the end it comes to personal beliefs.

[A. G. Maisey]

I have just finished reading the most recent posts to this thread.

I am a little disappointed that such ill informed comments are being made in respect of origin, development and spread of the keris.

Yes, I have written on this, but I do not ask anybody to accept without question that which I have written. Setting aside my own work, there is adequate evidence available to point anybody who can read in the direction of discovery for themselves.

Regretably this evidence is for the most part contained in books that are only available in large or specialised libraries; it cannot be accessed with a mouseclick. What this means for those who do not have access to such libraries is that they must avail themselves of material that is available on the net. Much of the material available on the net in this field draws upon these previously mentioned library sources.

Possibly a little time spent in research may be more valuable for some of us than the attempted support of insupportable opinions.

google can work wonders.

[rahman]

This thread is getting more interesting, and for the same reasons similar discussions in KampungNet got thrown into the Garbage Bin.

Methinks, rather than the forumers try to prove/disprove sepokal's thesis, the burden of proof should rest on him.

He has made some interesting claims about the Islamic origin of the keris, along with others -- such as the last Majapahit kingdom being based in Kelantan. He now needs to show us evidence to back his claims.

That is after all the foundation of learned discussion.

[David]

I can assure you all that this thread as a whole will not find it's way into any "garbage bin", though there is always the chance that offensive or highly disrespectful posts could get deleted. So far nothing written here qualifies for such drastic measures and i trust it will remain so.
I agree with Rahman. Since the commonly accepted wisdom as i understand it does not seem to support Sepokal's theory it would seem logical that it would be up to him to present convincing evidence to the contrary. Good luck with that.

[PenangsangII]

Salam to all keris afficionados,

If every single theory needed to be backed up by scientific findings, archaelogical artefacts etc, then I am afraid I cant do that. You see, I am only a high school graduate, my English is so bad (I even had a tough time trying to understand some of the posts here) etc etc. However, I came from a culture (or rather 2 cultures) that has little written tradition. What I heard in the past and what I am still hearing (I am still learning the traditional way) are materials obtained from oral tradition. That's why when I suggested that keris could also be of Aryan's origin, I was expecting somebody to comment so that I can learn from others' perspective, not only from my gurus. So I hope I will not be asked to provide scientific evidence please .

[sepokal]

Originally Posted by rahman

This thread is getting more interesting, and for the same reasons similar discussions in KampungNet got thrown into the Garbage Bin.

Methinks, rather than the forumers try to prove/disprove sepokal's thesis, the burden of proof should rest on him.

He has made some interesting claims about the Islamic origin of the keris, along with others -- such as the last Majapahit kingdom being based in Kelantan. He now needs to show us evidence to back his claims.

That is after all the foundation of learned discussion.

Dear Mr Rahman,

May I ask, since when was it that historian claim absolutely that the origin of Keris is not of Islamic origin? They merely deduce or rather in Scientific term, infered that Keris originated from Hinduism, through Candi Sukor. Now, all this was based on them studying Javanese Keris. Are we that naive to not know that the Malays too have their own version of Keris during those times? Or is it just because, we want information to be placed on our lap rather than to do research and dig deep?

This forum is not a place for me to unveil all the knowledge that I've gained through my many years of travelling and meeting with many people and reading books. I've given the information. I've got nothing to prove to anyone, at all. There is no profit for me to reveil those information to you. Nevertheless, I did reveil those information to you, long ago, but ironically, you want me to prove it. On a normal circumstance, I would, but now, I think, I won't. Do us a favour Mr Rahman, this information was known to you long ago. Have you made any research on this (plus doa) or do you expect things to just fall onto your lap? The burden to prove about Keris originated from Islam is never a burden to me now Mr Rahman. I'm passed that phase, long ago. I'll leave the burden to you and others, I guess ...or rather, I would advise, just stick to what you know, Keris and Hinduism...

Learned discussion requires you to do research Mr Rahman from what might be, to what actually is.

Oh by the way, do any Javanese keris have Dapor Sepokal like that of Bugis? Look at the shape, does it remind you of any "huruf" from Al Quran?

Allah Hafiz and Regards,
sepokal toh putih

p.s
Erm, I don't intend to do any more forum, so thanks. Penangsang...hehehe...stop mentioning my name...Hana...you know where to find me...hehehe

[David]

No one is asking anyone to do any field research. You can state any theory that you wish, but if you want it to be taken seriously i am afraid that you must provide at least some credible sources to support your theory. This is not necessarily "scientific" evidence, it is merely providing viable support for an idea that you expect other interested and often knowledgable students to take seriously. I could just as easily suggest that the origins of the keris lie with visiting space aliens from the Rigel 5 star system (yes, it's the dreaded Space Alien Theory ). Without providing any support for this far-fetched theory it is no more or less viable then your own.

[David]

Well thank you Sepokal, for you time here. Perhaps you have told Rahman things in the past, but really you have told me and others here absolutely nothing but empty theory. Nor have you answered my repeated request for translation of terms. I like to think that i have an open mind and frankly i don't know enough about keris (or anything for that matter) to be all that certain about origins or anything else. But i certainly am not about to buy into any theory merely on your's or anybody else's say so. Proof will never come, but if you are unable to make your theory seem logical to me why would i choose to accept it. And if you don't care if anyone gives any credence to your theory the why do you bother to state it to begin with?
You say this forum is not the place to unveil your great knowledge. Well then, what are you doing here? Why are you wasting our time then? Thank you for you contribution, however meager it might have been and may you find the right place where you great knowledge will be unquestioned and you can always be supeior and correct. We obviously are not worthy.

[PenangsangII]

Dear David,

This is yet another classic case of East Vs West. As I had written earlier, in Malay or Javanese culture for that matter, knowledge is to be sought thru certain customary ways - we cannot simply go to a guru and ask a lot of questions. OTOH, in western cultures, you are very encouraged to ask a lot of questions. So, you know how difficult it is to gain knowledge (esp if it involves mysticism, spirits etc) from a traditional Malay / Javanese guru. This is exactly what I am going thru now as I live in the very same culture, hence I am in the forum - to exchange knowledge. There's so much to learn in a very limited life span. Life is just too short.

Mr Sepokal,

Your wish will be my command. I promise not to quote your name again without permission, but I hope you reconsider stopping your inputs here .

Mr Rahman,

I do not want to be drawn to yet another old debate from another forum. If you could check again in the kampungnet thread that you had dumped to the bin, I believe you would understand what Sepokal (sorry for using your name again) had said about the possible Islamic origin of the keris.

Methink, Persians (Aryans) were known to be among the first who used damascene pattern forging of weapons. They also used wavy swords - but to accommodate the local environment, the wavy damascened swords had to go thru evolution, hence the keris we see today. Of course, this theory is not absolute, but logical.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

... Methink, Persians (Aryans) were known to be among the first who used damascene pattern forging of weapons. They also used wavy swords - but to accommodate the local environment, the wavy damascened swords had to go thru evolution, hence the keris we see today. Of course, this theory is not absolute, but logical.

Actually, we have covered this sometime back... do read this article, written by Mr Alan Maisey... [ link ]. I suggest bro Sepokal, you'll do likewise... do give it some thought, afterwhich, we can continue discussion if you like.

Bro Sepokal, as for the "Majapahit" / Sajen keris examples... do check it out [ here ].

[PenangsangII]

Bro AlamShah,

I read Alan's excellent article a few times since at least 2 years ago...and I think it's very intelligent observation, moreover, the writer is himself an empu. I'll go thru it again, and again.....

What I have to offer is the possibility of another origin, or maybe even parallel origin of the keris. Please consider this, people of Nusantara are strong followers of Sunni sect, but what's the deal with cleaning up (merawat) pusakas esp keris during 10 Muharram every year?