Meteoric iron used for keris's vs. for Indian weapons

[okhba3]

According to an Indonesian book: "Pamor Keris" by Bambang Harsrinuksmo, the key component for Pamor is Titanium and not Nickel. It's true that there was a laboratorium test for Prambanan meteorite and it said that there were 4.7% Nickel, 49.38% Iron and 0.53% Phospor, but the test was using ancient chemical anlysis. A newer test using nuclear physics was done by Haryono Arumbinang reveals that there was no Nickel in Prambanan meteorite, instead there were significant amount of Titanium, Iron, Zirkonium and Niobium.
The logic behind it that Titanium is so hard that when the meteorite hits the earth, most of the material was burned except for Titanium and other metals.

[tom hyle]

Originally Posted by Rick

From the archives :
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001122.html
Maybe some questions are answered here .

Wow! Way cool. I note that the foreign wootz was considered an interesting material for a ganga, but not suitable for a fine blade

[nechesh]

Sorry Henk, it was not my intention to imply that Tammens claimed Groneman was told about meteoric pamor. This is just my logical assumption based on the fact that he was working with the epmus of the time when this pamor may have still been used and they, no doubt, still had a clear memory of the previous generation of empus who had been their teachers. I think it unlikely that since we don't seem to have a test today that can determine for sure if these forged metals are from celestial origins that they didn't have one in 1900 either. So what scientic test could Grneman have used to come up with such a finding. The word of the empus and perhaps seeing them actually working with meteoric pamor was probably enough evidence to the fact.
And no Tom, the idea of meteoric pamor is not a confusion. There is plenty of evidence that the Prambanan fall was used for this purpose. The confusion came later when somehow it became legend that ALL keris were made of such metals.
Okhba3, your information is very interesting. I would love to hear more evidence to this, since i am the eternal skeptic . It is, of course, completely counter to the research of Tammens, but since i have already taken a swipe at some of that research i am not beyond believing that he may have been mistaken on this as well. I was not aware of these new discoveries and look foward to finding out more.

[BSMStar]

okhba3

OK, I am confused by the latest analysis on the Prambanan meteorite, do you have any sources to quote. An amount of Ti above a trace amount would be highly unusual... but to say there is no nickel, but Ti instead????? I would think the first state analysis is more correct than the other stating Ti.

Tom,

I do not think anyone would confuse pamor with Widmanstatten structure. Widmanstatten structure will only be visible through rusting (oxidation) or through acid etching. Pamor is basically binding the iron on the blade with sulfur to blacken it. Attached are two pictures to show the visual differences, the Widmanstatten structure if of a fine octahedrite.

Here is some more interesting stuff:

http://www.michaelbloodmeteorites.com/FS_iron.htm

[tom hyle]

Actually though we may have forgotten, I think it is very easy for anyone not familiar with either to confuse or conflate the two; the primary visual difference is contiunual curved layers vs. patchy small layers; not a very big difference to the many people who are not much used to thinking about material structures....

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Actually though we may have forgotten, I think it is very easy for anyone not familiar with either to confuse or conflate the two; the primary visual difference is contiunual curved layers vs. patchy small layers; not a very big difference to the many people who are not much used to thinking about material structures....

As long as we keep in mind, there isn't any black color in the Widmanstatten pattern. The affect is cause by the different speeds the acid "eats" it's way through the nickel-iron structure... where in pamor, it is a blackening affect by depositing sulfur on the iron, changing the color of the iron surface.

BSMStar

[tom hyle]

Actually pamor is etched by acid in exactly the same manner, and (commonly) also stained. The staining is a subtlety understood only by natives and afficionadi; ordinary "westerners" do not understand there to be a difference between pamor and any other folded steel, if they know anything about it at all.....listen, I encounter sellers on ebay who cannot give me measurements in coherent units, or who don't know the difference between width and thickness; believe me; it's easy for the ignorant to conflate things.

[okhba3]

BSMStar,
the book that I quoted is: "Pamor Keris", by Bambang Harsrinuksmo, C.V. Agung Lestari, Jakarta, 1995 (4th edition). Unfortunately it is an Indonesian language book. It is not a new research though, since the 1st edition of the book is February 1985. And there are no specific data in the book about the content of Titanium and other metal component for Prambanan meteorite, but it specifically said that there is no Nickel in that pamor material. The research was done by Haryono Arumbinang Msc, and his friends in BATAN (Indonesian atomic research body) in Yogyakarta. I will try to look at other sources though and see if I can be get more information about this research.

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Actually pamor is etched by acid in exactly the same manner, and (commonly) also stained. The staining is a subtlety understood only by natives and afficionadi; ordinary "westerners" do not understand there to be a difference between pamor and any other folded steel, if they know anything about it at all.....listen, I encounter sellers on ebay who cannot give me measurements in coherent units, or who don't know the difference between width and thickness; believe me; it's easy for the ignorant to conflate things.

Hi Tom,

I just want to be sure I am not misunderstood... unlike pamor, the Widmanstatten pattern has no staining to the surface as does pamor. That is the difference I am referring to.

BSMStar

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by okhba3

BSMStar,
the book that I quoted is: "Pamor Keris", by Bambang Harsrinuksmo, C.V. Agung Lestari, Jakarta, 1995 (4th edition). Unfortunately it is an Indonesian language book. It is not a new research though, since the 1st edition of the book is February 1985. And there are no specific data in the book about the content of Titanium and other metal component for Prambanan meteorite, but it specifically said that there is no Nickel in that pamor material. The research was done by Haryono Arumbinang Msc, and his friends in BATAN (Indonesian atomic research body) in Yogyakarta. I will try to look at other sources though and see if I can be get more information about this research.

Hi okhba3,

Thank you for your help.

BSMStar

[B.I]

hi,
back to the original quote by jens, about the meteorite weapons commisioned by jahangir. well, the dagger actually exists still and is in the freer gallery of art in washington.
to quote on the dagger in the gallery -

'it was ordered together with a dagger and two swords, to be made from the metal of a meteorite. accounts of this incident appear in jahangirs memoirs and also in the iqbal-nameh-i jahangiri. the armourer was ustad da'ud, described in the iqbal-nameh as 'well known in those days for the swords he made'. it is inscribed in gold persian nasta'liq on the spine of the blade:

'there fell in the time of jahangir shah from lightning-like precious piece.janhangir ibn akbar ordered to make from it two swords (shamshir), this knife (kard) and a dagger (khanjar). in the year 1030 (1621ad) in the year 16 (of jahangirs succession),146.'

the hilt of this knife, clearly original, is decoarated with typically persian chisselled vignettes of a lion killing an antelope and a hawk killing a bird. the form and repeat pattern of these medallions are founds on persian metalwork such as candlesticks of the period. this object is pure persian in inspiration, except that the royal ownership is underlined by the inlaid gold umbrella mark on the blade.'

note, he number 146 has been debated and general consencus agree the possibility of it being an inventory number. also, by pure speculation from an image, without holding the piece, the persian work on the hilt just reminds me of late 18thC work, and not of the period stated. its just a speculative opinion, as the quote is from a good source, as are the general opinions from the freer gallery.
interesting stuff!!
btw, although it is a great dagger indeed, i think i would gladly exchange it for the chance to see jens' face when i sees the images

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi B.I.

I was a bit surprised to see that ’Meteoric’ was still alive, and to see the picture was an even bigger surprise. I had never thought that any of these weapons, made out of the meteor, still existed. How or where you found it is a riddle to me, but thank you very much for showing it. The pattern on the blade is most unusual, but I like it a lot, just like I like the whole knife. Your end remark about seeing my face when I read the text and saw the pictures, was very well placed .

Jens

[Mare Rosu]

JENS
This is a link to the dagger that B.I.
is showing.
http://www.asia.si.edu/collections/s...ObjectId=10925
Gene

[B.I]

well found, gene. i didnt realise that a picture was online, and i bet jens is kicking himself for not finding it first
i learnt sometime ago from the V&A pieces that you can find additional information from somthing as simple as an accession number. these are never random numbers, at least in british institutions and i think the US is the same.
this piece has the number
Purchase, F1955.27a-b
1955 is the year the museum aquired it, and F probably is the inititial of the person/sale it was aquired from. i'm sure a little back tracking could yield some more information. either that, or a phonecall to someone in the department to ask what the F stands for. it would be good to know where the dagger came from, as we can assume the museum hasnt held it too long.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Gene, thank you for the link – it is a beauty. I wonder what the museum want this knife for, now in my collection – it would be real comfy – but I am afraid that they will not part with it, sigh.
I think I will have to settle with the fact that it is safe, and kept for new collectors to see and admire. Just imagine its history – fantastic. The pattern of the blade, besides being very unusual, really fascinates me. How many other blades do we know, of which we are sure, that they are made of meteoric iron?

B.I. is a bit of a marvel, when he puts his mind to it, it is not the first time he has given me a big surprise – and I don’t hope it will be the last time.

[Mare Rosu]

JENS
This is a link to a painting of Jahangir the owner of the dagger shown by B.I. ,from the Smithsonian Museum link I posted on the Asian Museum

http://www.asia.si.edu/collections/s...?ObjectId=3407

Gene

[Jens Nordlunde]

Yes Gene, it is a very nice drawing of a high quality.
A pity that we can't travel in time - yet, or maybe it is good so, becourse how many people would stay back in our time, they would all be travelling to other time zones .

Jens

[Jens Nordlunde]

Have a look at this thread, one of the books Kamil mentions.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=473

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by nechesh

Sorry Wayne, but i'm afraid i have to disagree with you here. The keris would have been a special and unique weapon with or without the Prambanan meteorite, though certainly the possibility of pamor from the stars has increased that somewhat. But i think it is important that we dispell these meteorite myths somewhat. Yes, a certain amount of court pieces from the 19th and possibly early 20th century were made, but this is hardly the bulk or height of keris history. Still there are many folks out there who still believe that all keris were made this way. There are many keris, especially earlier ones that don't even use nickelous pamor, just various irons to create contrast in patterns. These keris are still special and unique.

I think there is evidence that meteorite pamor was used before the Prambanan meteorite was taken into the Keraton Surakarta as there is evidence of the trading of meteorite before the Prambanan pamor. Empus practised meditations which alowed them to find peices of metal and often Empus would travel collecting pieces of iron to make keris. The Dayak in Kalimantan also make the best mandau from batu bintang.

Meteorite is an important symbolic part of the keris and apart from the pangawak waja and the kelengan type of keris every Empu would try to have at least a little bit of meteorite in the mixture of the metals used in the pamor as a syarat. The pangawak waja and kelengan blades don't have any pamor for esoteric reasons before the material reasons. The Javanese had a metallurgy based on the feeling rasa of different irons and pamor materials and this knowledge and art is what governs the behaviour of the Empu.

The simple academic answer to the question of meteorite and keris is that the keris was invented by the Gods and brought to Java by Aji Saka from Hindustan and until the Dutch interference in the keris world the keris continued to develop in Java according to Javanese lore. One of the main changes in the javanese attitude towards the keris happened during the Great Depression when the Dutch pawn shops valued the well dressed and new keris higher than old and more magical but simply dressed tayuhan keris.

During the Majapahit empire the keris spread throughout South East Asia and developed into the weapon of the Malay world. The fall of Majapahit and the introduction of Islam and cannon developed the keris in different ways in different SEA regions but essentially it is a prayer and not a weapon.

Of course kerises have been used to kill and in some parts of SEA they are made to kill as well but the Java keris is never intended to kill. The instances when there has been a Java keris killing in history are remembered by the Javanese as mistakes, wrongs, and the event was unusual. One of the most common dapur of the keris, the Tilam Upih, often has a blade so thin that it would be close to useles as a stabbing weapon.

In fact the story of Aji Saka as recorded in the Javanese hanacaraka alphabet might give a clue as to why the keris is never meant to be used to kill in Java.

[nechesh]

Kiai, I would love to hear you evidence. I am sure you understand that stating that there is evidence is not the same as actually presenting evidence. There may well have been unrecorded meteor strikes on Jawa that we are unaware of, but given the size of the place, the fact that very, very few meteorite actually strike the Earth (most burn up in the atmosphere), and that of those that do, most do not contain the proper pamor materials, it just doesn't seem likely that enough of this material coulds have existed at such an early time to allow for meteorite to become so crucial to keris making that every empu would be able to include even a little in every keris they made. I look forward to your evidence because quite frankly, i would like to believe you are correct.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by nechesh

Kiai, I would love to hear you evidence. I am sure you understand that stating that there is evidence is not the same as actually presenting evidence. There may well have been unrecorded meteor strikes on Jawa that we are unaware of, but given the size of the place, the fact that very, very few meteorite actually strike the Earth (most burn up in the atmosphere), and that of those that do, most do not contain the proper pamor materials, it just doesn't seem likely that enough of this material coulds have existed at such an early time to allow for meteorite to become so crucial to keris making that every empu would be able to include even a little in every keris they made. I look forward to your evidence because quite frankly, i would like to believe you are correct.

I think that material evidence in kerisology is not always possible or desireable as a keris is not a material weapon rather it is an esoteric weapon. Alot of what we know about keris comes from legend. Then there is the traditional esoteric practises of Javanese artist which is still kept and taught to apprentices by some people in Java. In the education of the Java poet / artist there are several meditations such as 'nggrayang raga' and 'ngraga sukma' and movement meditations like 'gerak nurani'. These meditations expand the senses and would allow a heavenly-pamor collector gather pieces of meteorite smaller than chicken eggs.

Kerises older than the Prambanan keris are also claimed by the families that own them to be made of meteorite pamor. Works by Mpu Singkir, Mpu Pitrang, Mpu Supa Mandrangi and other great Mpu are believed to use meteorite in the pamor. When the Prambanan meteorite fell everyone knew exactly what to do with it it was to make pamor.

Some people interviewed by the late Bambang Harsrinuksmo while compiling his Ensiklopedi Keris also said that until the Great Depression meteorite was for sale in the markets of Solo, Madiun, Yogya, Palembang in Sumatra and so on. Not all the pamor on the market was Prambanan pamor but all pamor was more valuable than gold. However, if it will please you, I will say that before the Prambanan meteor there is no evidence of the use of meteor in Java keris.

Salam Keris

[nechesh]

No Kiai, it doesn't particularly please me that you have no real evidence for your statements. It was my sincere hope you did, for who among us would not want to believe that we might own a keris with meteoric pamor? The difficulty that arises here is one of academic study. And no, it is not the "simple academic answer" that the keris was invented by the gods and brought to Jawa by Aji Saka. This is merely a legend. Myths, legends, stories and conjecture can help to point us in directions for our study, but real evidence is needed if we are to prove our case. I am not surprised to see that you have studied the late, great Harsrinuksmo. I am probably wasting my letters here, but the Harsrinuksmo's philosophy of keris is a relatively new one. This is not to say that it does not hold relative "truths", per se. But this system has not always been the way Javanese of viewed or used the keris. Elements of it perhaps, but not in total. This is not to say that it isn't "true" for you today. Joseph Cambell, the great compiler of comparative religion, once said that he never had a true mystical experience with the various religions he studied because he never invested himself completely enough in any one system of thought. Harsrinuksmo's writings are a system of thought on the keris and if one programs this system into the hard drive that is our brain it will undoubtably yield results in the use of the keris as a mystical tool. But i do believe that if we take certain "truths" of that system and examine them outside of the system itself that they will simply not hold up to the test. The same can probably be said for any of the worlds religions. Faith plays an important part in making these systems work. For you, the existence of meteoric pamor in your keris is an important symbolic part of your mystical system of the keris. But many of us on this forum are seeking facts, not faith. We follow logic, not dogma. So i ask that you please not be offended when some of us disagree with things you state that are for you a matter of faith. I would like to be able to accept your word for it, but i will continue to dig deeper.

[Kiai Carita]

[QUOTE=nechesh]No Kiai, it doesn't particularly please me that you have no real evidence for your statements. It was my sincere hope you did, for who among us would not want to believe that we might own a keris with meteoric pamor? The difficulty that arises here is one of academic study. And no, it is not the "simple academic answer" that the keris was invented by the gods and brought to Jawa by Aji Saka. This is merely a legend. Myths, legends, stories and conjecture can help to point us in directions for our study, but real evidence is needed if we are to prove our case.

Is not the existence of 'nggrayang raga', 'ngraga sukma', and 'gerak nurani' ample evidence that a Mpu would be able to find rare meteorite on the ground? And what is a percentage value compared to all the bodies in the heavens?

There is a martial arts school in Yogya called Merpati Putih and one of their specialities is to be able to see colour and form blindfolded. It is only a step further to be able to find peices of meteorite. When the first Sultan of Yogyakarta was young he would often go to a deep river in the middle of the night and chuck his diamond ring in to the dark water. Then he would begin to dive to find it and he did every time because his sences were extra sensitive because of his spiritual and physical excercises. These excercises are documented in writing (i think in Serat Cebolek or Serat Cebolang) and quoted in the Javanese poet W.S Rendra's essay 'Latihan-Latihan Sri Sultan HB I di masa Remaja' (Gramedia, Mempertimbangkan Tradisi).

The Subud spiritual school is an international institution and they teach 'gerak nurani'. Why not be truly experimental and try out these excercises and see what you are able to do before you slag off the old Javanese Mpu as not being able to find meteorite for their pamor? I think that when we analyse the Java keris we need to incorporate some post-modernism and not slag off a living story as 'merely a legend'. The scientific study of the keris must move on from the racist (I am Dutch/white and so know more about the real you than you ignoramus inlander/native who eats rice every day) point of view and incorporate the views of the people who actually own the culture and the context of the keris.

Sorry Sir, I think that your scientific approach to the keris is merely legend of science, the type of science of the Colonial era where things are always what they seem and the native is always mistaken. I believe that the humanities have developed now and the 'objects' of study cannot be seen as merely objects any more if one expects to be taken as 'scientific'. Being scientific is only an other myth anyway! I would suggest that if you have a keris that comes from before the Prambanan meteorite it would have at least a bit of meteorite in it. If pamor was not from meteorite then the Dutch and the Solo and Yogya writers would have discussed the novelty of the Prambanan pamor in that it could be used to make a keris.

I also would assume that after the influx of European metals in Java the Mpu would be able to have a wider source of pamor material and would use smaller and smaller amounts of meteorite for the lesser kerises. The remnants of the Prambanan pamor is still there for all to see in the Surakarta Kraton but at least hundreds of keris have been made using the Prambanan pamor. Reason why? Most only have a smidgin of meteorite.

I suggest you Google Subud and find a school near you and practise 'gerak nurani' so as to be able to have an idea of the powers of the old Mpu.

Salam keris.

[Rick]

Most Honored ,
I enter this discussion as a member , not as a staff member .
I have a suggestion and please do not take insult from it I beg of you .
Rather than Nechesh investing possibly years learning the art of divination why not find someone to accept this million dollar challenge :

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

I assure you this is not a joke , it is a serious effort to discover if powers as you claim do indeed exist .

Most respectfully submitted .

Rick
EEWRS

[Kiai Carita]

Rick thakn you for your link to the million dollar challenge. I have not claimed any supernatural powers of the keris itself but I have claimed that the Merpati Putih school of martial arts can teach how to see with every cell of your body. The school's headquarters is in Yogyakarta and I would be happy to take you there and ask to see a demonstration. I would also be happy to share the million dollars with you.

Salam Keris

[Rick]

Most Honored , I only bring the challenge forth to try to settle the question at hand . I was not referring to the keris ; I was referring to the act of seeing with every cell of one's body .
Possibly you can contact the school to see if they have any interest . Even if they eschew the cash award it could be put to good use for any charity or school endeavor in Jawa .

Now I will step out of this discussion .

Thank you .

[nechesh]

Kiai, you write english exceptionally well, but i get the feeling you either are nt understanding my words or you are making assumption to what i am saying without really reading my posts. I am certainly NOT "slagging off" the mystical powers of the empu. However, even the most astute empu would have great difficulty locating pieces of nickelous meteorite that don't exist. Angain i must state what a rare occurance such a meteorite is and to hit such a small island in SEA with all that surrounding sea. I am not asking you for evidence to prove the mystical powers of the empu. Your assumption that i know nothing of such powers because i am from a different culture than yours borders on racism itself. My life has been steeped in mystical practice from many different cultures for the past 25 yrs. or more. I do, however, appreciate your suggestions and will look further into 'gerak nurani' though i hardly need to in order to understand and appreciate the powers of the ancient empu.

[Kiai Carita]

Dear Nechesh, I am glad to hear you are not slagging off the old Mpu. However if you think of the meteorite that have been showering earth since the beginning of time then there must be meteorite in rivers where the surface soil is brought by the waters. If only one gramme of meteorite fell on Java every year since the beginning of time how many tonnes of the stuff would be there when the Mpu's began to take center stage in the 10'th century?

You will not need years to be able to practise 'gerak nurani'. You only need a teacher to show you how and in ten minutes you will be able to do it. Find your lost keyes and stuff like that. To get really sensitive however you need longer. ... Also not only nickel containing meteorite can be used as pamor. The idea of nickel is new in kerisology, introduced by the Dutch of the old scientific school. The Javanese never knew the Western metalurgy and they had dozens of names for iron.

Salam Keris

[BluErf]

Interesting discussion, Gentlemen. I haven't read a series of posts as well written as Kiai Carita's for a while. Thank you and welcome to the forum, Kiai Carita.

What I'm going to write is not directly linked to the discussion above, but just some thoughts that arose while reading the posts.

While I am not a believer of supernatural or paranormal activities/powers, I do see the point that the keris in totality is anchored in more than the material world. And it is up to the individual how they want to approach the keris. So I would say Nechesh and Kiai Carita are on different sides of the same coin, and finding it difficult to see face-to-face. But that is not to say anyone is right or wrong. The world is made up of all views, just like in order to appreciate the keris, one must look at all physical angles, and then the non-physical aspects too. Some of us are 'irreconciliably' anchored in one aspect, but that is alright. Its our karma and dharma.

I think it is as important to consider how the keris is treated and perceived, as it is to look at what it is physically. The keris is a different thing as seen by different eyes, from the local Southeast Asians to the Westerners who 'veni, vidi, vici' centuries past and brought back a whole bunch of kerises to Europe (in a certain way, a fortunate outcome of an unhappy past because some of the most beautiful kerises got preserved immaculately).

Anyway, in totality, apart from the physical attributes and composition that make a keris beautiful and/or lethal, the keris has an aspect of mysticism and esoterism that is not so readily shared, understood or seen. However, just because it cannot be seen or proven does not mean it is not there (or there, for that matter). In fact, it may have never been meant to be proven. But not able to prove something does not make the thing less real. An idea/concept/story does not need to be proven. They are. (Well, if someone wants to find the exact origins, what happened to who, why the idea came up, produce evidence, etc, he could do that, but that's not the point). Just as some of these things run on 'faith', they also run on 'views'. As we may have observed, sometimes, when enough people subscribes to a view, it becomes the 'truth'.

And also, sometimes, things we cannot understand or prove is just something we cannot understand or prove. e.g. there is this man in China who can generate so much heat from his hands that he can cook a fish just holding on to it. There's this Korean master who could hold a spoonful of molten lead in his mouth. I have personally experienced a Tai Chi master who can control electricity from a live wire and allow small 'hair-raising' current to pass on to people holding onto his bare hands (in fact he could vary the current passing through). So maybe it is not too difficult to imagine people who are attuned to finding things (for whatever reasons unexplained, but not necessary paranormal/supernatural). Hey we have Jedi knights who can see into the future with the aid of the 'Force', right?

Ok, I think my thoughts are not coming together in a disciplined manner, so I better stop this verbal diarrhea.

[BluErf]

I just read the other thread started by Vinny and regrets that it came to a rather unhappy ending. But anyway, lets not get red-faced and boiling when discussing keris.

I think we read too much into words sometimes (me included), and our emotions inserts 'extra' meaning/insinuation to those words that did not intend to convey those meaning/insinuation.

Studying or collecting keris is about patience and acceptance of diversity (from ideas, context to keris dress and dapur, etc). Lets strive towards these qualities.

Free smiles for everyone today!!!!!!!!!!