Katzbalgers and Related Landsknecht Swords - Page 2

Matchlock · 14th March 2009, 06:15 PM

Some more.

Matchlock · 14th March 2009, 06:33 PM

And more ...

Matchlock · 14th March 2009, 06:42 PM

More ...

Matchlock · 14th March 2009, 07:02 PM

More.

Matchlock · 14th March 2009, 07:07 PM

That's it for today.

Not to forget something that might be of special interest to you, Fernando, compadre mio - well, actually I assume that you are a member of this Society!

Michael

celtan · 15th March 2009, 02:49 AM

Art is such a window into the past...a poorman's Time Travel Machine.

Did you guys notice the existence of both round and sharp tipped KBs?

Thank You Very Much for sharing these, Michael.

Best Regards

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

More.

celtan · 15th March 2009, 03:38 AM

Hi Jim, as always, you show a keen eye.
: )
Seems I'm inordenately attracted to swedish swords, I have no idea why.
Regarding knowledge, I do believe Khanjar is far more versed in that area.
Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Michael and Manuel,

You seem to have some interesting examples and knowledge on Swedish weapons Manuel. Is this one of your fields of interest? There really is not a great deal of information around on them, and its great to see them posted here to learn more about them.

All the best,
Jim

Matchlock · 15th March 2009, 08:25 PM

Woodcuts of 1524 and 1537 respectively, depicting Katzbalgers and an early two hand sword with figure eight quillons.

Fom Kintzertorium's photostream on www.flickr.com.

Michael

Matchlock · 16th March 2009, 04:50 PM

These two woodcuts are by Daniel Hopfer, both ca. 1525.

Michael

Matchlock · 16th March 2009, 04:57 PM

A bit more on early swords, all from flickr.com.

The authors of these are credited by giving their flickr. akas together with each picture.

Michael

Matchlock · 16th March 2009, 05:02 PM

More.

Matchlock · 16th March 2009, 05:05 PM

Done for today.

m

cornelistromp · 18th March 2009, 10:48 PM

very nice pictures, I have 4 rare katzbalgers in my collection, one
published by J.Ypey.
I will place some pictures in this thread coming weekend.

Matchlock · 19th March 2009, 04:22 PM

Paintig of St. George, Swiss, ca. 1510, and a woodcut depicting hand-and-a-half swords from a fencing book of 1558.

Michael

Matchlock · 19th March 2009, 04:29 PM

The first boar sword, ca. 1510-20, sold at auction Galerie Fischer, Lucerne, Switzerland, May 19,1933.

The others preserved at the Deutsches Klingenmuseum (blade museum) Solingen. The boar sword ca. 1515, the Katzbalger ca. 1530.

Michael

Matchlock · 19th March 2009, 04:32 PM

Cornelistromp,

We look forward to seeing your pieces!

Michael

cornelistromp · 19th March 2009, 09:04 PM

katzbalger 1500-1520

cornelistromp · 20th March 2009, 05:03 PM

katzbalger early 16thC.
I found a similar piece in the "historischen Museum" in Bern Switserland
vgl. Wegeli Schwerter und Dolche nr 172

Matchlock · 20th March 2009, 05:52 PM

Both of them seem to be very fine pieces, Cornelis - thank you for sharing!

I am tempted to assign a date of ca. 1530 to the first because of its thickly ribbed pommel. Those ribs closely correspond to those found on both contemporary armor and barrels.

Is it posible to take a few good details of the brass grip showing its line decoration? That would be great.

You sure are one very lucky guy to get those, congratulations.

All the best,
Michael

broadaxe · 20th March 2009, 06:27 PM

Cornelistromp, these are wonderful items, thank you for posting. So far I like #2 in particular, bacause of the "munition grade" appearance, not counting the unusual decoration of the copper (?) rivets in the guard. I would love to see a photo of all 4 swords togather, to see the entire blades and relative sizes.

cornelistromp · 20th March 2009, 06:33 PM

one side is a female saint Barbara with tower and feather at the reverse side
a man with a sword and a book probably saint Paul. this Katzbalger can be dated first quarter of the 16thC.

cornelistromp · 20th March 2009, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadaxe

Cornelistromp, these are wonderful items, thank you for posting. So far I like #2 in particular, bacause of the "munition grade" appearance, not counting the unusual decoration of the copper (?) rivets in the guard. I would love to see a photo of all 4 swords togather, to see the entire blades and relative sizes.

thank you.
ps:All the katzbalger of this particular type ( the 3 pieces I know) , have the same copper fillings at the quard.

cornelistromp · 21st March 2009, 05:09 PM

developed Katzbalger, spain 1540

cornelistromp · 21st March 2009, 05:11 PM

katzbalger 4 waterfind.

ausjulius · 21st March 2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

A bit more on early swords, all from flickr.com.

The authors of these are credited by giving their flickr. akas together with each picture.

Michael

interesting picture there,
in the painting with the knight with the white plumed helmet at his feet the made is depicted as being of african origin....
this is interesting,
what is the meaning being displayed in the picture?
or is this from some factuial event showing a individuial who exsisted in history??

or is it just the artist using artistic license to make the picture more interesting??
im sure there were some africans in europe at the time , as the were in the middle east and ottoman possetions , aspecialy in istabul. and although id presume they were for the most part held as slaves no doubt some would have been free or would have been able to get to non moslem areas where slavery was not common or forbidden.

brings up another interesting topic, as to how much interacion there was medieval between the middle east and north africa and europe..

i have read some place that there is records dating from the 13th century showing arabs and persians being employed in the production of crossbows bars in london...... i wonder..

Matchlock · 21st March 2009, 06:43 PM

Ausjulius,

The depiction that you referred to is part of an altar piece by Hans Baldung Grien called The Adoration of the Magi. According to the New Testament, one of the Magi was Melchior and he indeed is said to have been of African nationality. So this knight represents Melchior.

Don't worry too much about seeing an African wearing a South German early Renaissance suit of armor. In fact, it has nothing to do with the actual historic clothing of African people 500 years ago. The reason why the master painter sort of put him into this armor lies in the fact that the early 16th century Germans who this altar piece was made for wished any work of art to reflect their own contemporary culture, including knightly suits of armor.

When interpreting sources of illustration it is very important to keep in mind the general historic self image of people and both their religious basis and everyday environment at those periods of time.

Michael

ausjulius · 24th March 2009, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Ausjulius,

The depiction that you referred to is part of an altar piece by Hans Baldung Grien called The Adoration of the Magi. According to the New Testament, one of the Magi was Melchior and he indeed is said to have been of African nationality. So this knight represents Melchior.

Don't worry too much about seeing an African wearing a South German early Renaissance suit of armor. In fact, it has nothing to do with the actual historic clothing of African people 500 years ago. The reason why the master painter sort of put him into this armor lies in the fact that the early 16th century Germans who this altar piece was made for wished any work of art to reflect their own contemporary culture, including knightly suits of armor.

When interpreting sources of illustration it is very important to keep in mind the general historic self image of people and both their religious basis and everyday environment at those periods of time.

Michael

yes this is true.

i did not know the painting so i was interested in the origin of the image.
i understand there is a german saint from roman times who was popular in the past in some parts of western germany , who is typicaly depicted as being of african origin..?

Matchlock · 24th March 2009, 02:42 AM

Well, Ausjulius,

Actually the African King and Magi Melchior was not a specifically German person but a Christian Saint who, accompanied by two more kings (magi), had followed a star and come a long way from the East to see and adore the new born Jesus Christ. To be exact, The Lord Jesus Christ was not just popular in some parts of Western Germany at some time but has been one of the most imoprtant religious leaders wordwide for two thousand years. He founded Christianity.

Michael

Matchlock · 24th March 2009, 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

one side is a female saint Barbara with tower and feather at the reverse side
a man with a sword and a book probably saint Paul. this Katzbalger can be dated first quarter of the 16thC.

Hi Cornelius,

May I repeat my request to get provided with some good detailed photographs of the figural representations on the brass grip of your first Katzbalger?

Thanks in advance for putting up with any inconveniences of photography!

Michael

cornelistromp · 24th March 2009, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi Cornelius,

May I repeat my request to get provided with some good detailed photographs of the figural representations on the brass grip of your first Katzbalger?

Thanks in advance for putting up with any inconveniences of photography!

Michael

michael,

of course, i added some text ,are you not afraid of abuse of pictures?

Best regards

14th March 2009, 06:15 PM	#31
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Some more. Attached Images

14th March 2009, 06:33 PM	#32
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	And more ... Attached Images

14th March 2009, 06:42 PM	#33
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	More ... Attached Images

14th March 2009, 07:02 PM	#34
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	More. Attached Images

14th March 2009, 07:07 PM	#35
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	That's it for today. Not to forget something that might be of special interest to you, Fernando, compadre mio - well, actually I assume that you are a member of this Society! Michael Attached Images

15th March 2009, 08:25 PM	#38
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Woodcuts of 1524 and 1537 respectively, depicting Katzbalgers and an early two hand sword with figure eight quillons. Fom Kintzertorium's photostream on www.flickr.com. Michael Attached Images

16th March 2009, 04:50 PM	#39
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	These two woodcuts are by Daniel Hopfer, both ca. 1525. Michael Attached Images

16th March 2009, 04:57 PM	#40
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A bit more on early swords, all from flickr.com. The authors of these are credited by giving their flickr. akas together with each picture. Michael Attached Images

16th March 2009, 05:02 PM	#41
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	More. Attached Images

16th March 2009, 05:05 PM	#42
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Done for today. m Attached Images

18th March 2009, 10:48 PM	#43
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	katzbalgers very nice pictures, I have 4 rare katzbalgers in my collection, one published by J.Ypey. I will place some pictures in this thread coming weekend.

19th March 2009, 04:22 PM	#44
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Paintig of St. George, Swiss, ca. 1510, and a woodcut depicting hand-and-a-half swords from a fencing book of 1558. Michael Attached Images

19th March 2009, 04:29 PM	#45
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A Katzbalger and two Boar Swords The first boar sword, ca. 1510-20, sold at auction Galerie Fischer, Lucerne, Switzerland, May 19,1933. The others preserved at the Deutsches Klingenmuseum (blade museum) Solingen. The boar sword ca. 1515, the Katzbalger ca. 1530. Michael Attached Images

19th March 2009, 04:32 PM	#46
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Cornelistromp, We look forward to seeing your pieces! Michael

19th March 2009, 09:04 PM	#47
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	katzbalger 1500-1520 Attached Images

20th March 2009, 05:03 PM	#48
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	katzbalger early 16thC. I found a similar piece in the "historischen Museum" in Bern Switserland vgl. Wegeli Schwerter und Dolche nr 172 Attached Images

20th March 2009, 05:52 PM	#49
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Both of them seem to be very fine pieces, Cornelis - thank you for sharing! I am tempted to assign a date of ca. 1530 to the first because of its thickly ribbed pommel. Those ribs closely correspond to those found on both contemporary armor and barrels. Is it posible to take a few good details of the brass grip showing its line decoration? That would be great. You sure are one very lucky guy to get those, congratulations. All the best, Michael

20th March 2009, 06:27 PM	#50
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Cornelistromp, these are wonderful items, thank you for posting. So far I like #2 in particular, bacause of the "munition grade" appearance, not counting the unusual decoration of the copper (?) rivets in the guard. I would love to see a photo of all 4 swords togather, to see the entire blades and relative sizes.

20th March 2009, 06:33 PM	#51
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	one side is a female saint Barbara with tower and feather at the reverse side a man with a sword and a book probably saint Paul. this Katzbalger can be dated first quarter of the 16thC. Last edited by cornelistromp; 21st March 2009 at 05:39 PM.

21st March 2009, 05:09 PM	#53
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	developed Katzbalger, spain 1540 Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 21st March 2009 at 05:49 PM.

21st March 2009, 05:11 PM	#54
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	katzbalger 4 waterfind. Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 21st March 2009 at 05:56 PM.

21st March 2009, 06:43 PM	#56
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Ausjulius, The depiction that you referred to is part of an altar piece by Hans Baldung Grien called The Adoration of the Magi. According to the New Testament, one of the Magi was Melchior and he indeed is said to have been of African nationality. So this knight represents Melchior. Don't worry too much about seeing an African wearing a South German early Renaissance suit of armor. In fact, it has nothing to do with the actual historic clothing of African people 500 years ago. The reason why the master painter sort of put him into this armor lies in the fact that the early 16th century Germans who this altar piece was made for wished any work of art to reflect their own contemporary culture, including knightly suits of armor. When interpreting sources of illustration it is very important to keep in mind the general historic self image of people and both their religious basis and everyday environment at those periods of time. Michael

24th March 2009, 02:42 AM	#58
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Well, Ausjulius, Actually the African King and Magi Melchior was not a specifically German person but a Christian Saint who, accompanied by two more kings (magi), had followed a star and come a long way from the East to see and adore the new born Jesus Christ. To be exact, The Lord Jesus Christ was not just popular in some parts of Western Germany at some time but has been one of the most imoprtant religious leaders wordwide for two thousand years. He founded Christianity. Michael

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