Help pls. on 15th-17th C. cutlass & scimitar

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Miguel,
Pretty good job working on the translations, as if I am any authority ..I dont speak or read it either, but can sometimes cobble a general overview.
Not sure about the pidgeon house thing All I know is in the 17th century, Palomares put together some boxed panels of illustrations of makers marks, then numerically labeled them.

On the Conquistador book...the Osprey titles are great....work excellent for me with limited library space...and I just ordered 'The Conquistadors' by David Nicolle (also an Osprey title)...I just like Nicolle's work (my opinion, easy on the critical reviews everybody .

We've really got a pretty good discussion going here, and I spent most of the day yesterday looking everywhere for info on Tizona and Colada, and think I'll put that on a different thread to see if we can get deeper into these two swords by that reference in the thread title.

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

... Fer... I was wondering what is the word in english for "alfanje". Maybe your "unscholared" person can tell me, because I don´t know ...

I would be the last person able to tell you, Gonzalo; as said before, that is too much sand for my truck .
I go one place and it says: Scimitar; i go another one and it says: cutlass. Apparently there is no strict translation. Likely this term never turned into english vocabulary.
It seems as alfange is connected to Persian FAchar, or Urdu URchar, originated from the Arabic ARchar (Al khanjar); poping around through the Spano-Arab al-hangal ... pretended by others to be al-janyar (puñal?).
If you go by the digestive description/definition, you fall into the bottomless well of the short, slightly curved wide blade sabres range which, in its widest interpretation, embraces the European falchion, fauchar, bracamarte, messer, storta, the Turc Kiliç, the Indian talwar, the Arab saif ... not to speak about their Spanish (Peninsular?) keen alfanjón, alfanjonazo and alfanjete; even the terciado (so much discussed in the kampilan thread) or the chafarote ... look at me, breathless .
Maybe in a first aception you could consider the alfange a composite 'pattern', partly European and partly Oriental. Shorter but heavier than Oriental sabres, with a false edge that could well come from the longsax, the 'cutlass' or the falchion, generaly equiped with an 'S' guard, like the bracamarte, the messer and some late falchions. Beautyful specimens, like the one attached, were made and exported from renascent Venice ... the pieces you are looking for, Lorenz
It is also written that the term alfanje (later alfange) was used in medieval Iberia to define Moorish curved swords, shorter and wider than scimitars; such being potentially the weapon used in the Muslim conquest of Penisula..
The alfanje is also cited by Cervantes in Don Quixote:

"-Vos sois quien la necesita», respondió el manchego, y abrió la batalla con un tajo tan desmedido, que si el arma fuera un alfanje, allí quedara el portugués para la huesa"

" ... and opened the battle with such an enormous slash that, if the weapon were a an alfanje, there would remain the portuguese for the grave"

End of this unschooled chapter

Fernando

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[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... We've really got a pretty good discussion going here, and I spent most of the day yesterday looking everywhere for info on Tizona and Colada, and think I'll put that on a different thread to see if we can get deeper into these two swords by that reference in the thread title.

Jim, great idea! And I'll follow that other new thread with great interest for sure

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by fernando

... It seems as alfange is connected to Persian FAchar, or Urdu URchar, originated from the Arabic ARchar (Al khanjar); poping around through the Spano-Arab al-hangal ... pretended by others to be al-janyar (puñal?). If you go by the digestive description/definition, you fall into the bottomless well of the short, slightly curved wide blade sabres range which, in its widest interpretation, embraces the European falchion, fauchar, bracamarte, messer, storta, the Turc Kiliç, the Indian talwar, the Arab saif ... not to speak about their Spanish (Peninsular?) keen alfanjón, alfanjonazo and alfanjete; even the terciado (so much discussed in the kampilan thread) or the chafarote ... look at me, breathless ... the pieces you are looking for, Lorenz ...
End of this unschooled chapter

Fernando, wow that's a very beautiful sweeping panorama, the way you walked us through those swords! If that's what "unschooled" means, get me out of those learning institutions Thanks!

[Gonzalo G]

Mmmm, Fer...I don´t believe the arabs of the conquest used any curved sword, but very late on the 15th Century. This venetian weapon I believe is a sttorta, and the longsax is a similar weapon, but maybe all of them are called "alfanjes" by the spaniards, so the word continues being ambiguos, and does not designates a precise and specific weapon. Seems a good sword to figh on the sea, by the way. Miguel de Cervantes fought against the turks in the maritime battle of Lepanto, where he lost a hand.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Gonzalo G]

As for the traslations, this is my free version:

For the first image

LOOPS AND RINGS RAPIER
Toledan
End of the 16th Century

Hilt: Loops and rings, chiselled with great mastery, with a truncated cone pommel resting over a rounded base, and then over a ferrule. Cylindrical hilt, deeply grooved in a spiral, straight guard quillons and polygonal block. The loops are made with three wires, the central one continues as a knuckleguard. The posterior part of the loops are united with the rings, which extends to the end of the recasso. A very armonic and well made work.

Blade: Wide, diamond profile with a fuller in the first third. Double edged.

And the next:

LOOPS AND RINGS RAPIER
Iohannes de la Horta
Middle 16th Century

Hilt: Loops and ring, italian style, and a little asymmetric in it´s development. Note the presence of only one quillon curved toward the point of the sword, only one wire directed to form the knuckleguard and a big loop which goes from the recasso to the cross in a subtle curvature. There are three loops over the recasso joining at the cross where the knuckleguard begins. Very pointed block. Pommel almost cylindrical, but rounded in it´s superior portion. Faceted hilt completely covered with brided wire among two ferules in the form of a "turk head" knot. All the elements are chiselled and damasquinated.

Blade: Lenticular, double edged and fullered in the first third.

Inscription: Stamped on the recasso with an "A", from Iohannes de la Horta swordmaker.

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Fernando, wow that's a very beautiful sweeping panorama, the way you walked us through those swords! If that's what "unschooled" means, get me out of those learning institutions Thanks!

Fernando is most modest, and by 'unschooled' simply, in my understanding, means not necessarily formally schooled in degree. In my personal estimation, often self education can exceed such categorized results....well illustrated by the knowledge he openly shares here!

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Jim, great idea! And I'll follow that other new thread with great interest for sure

Thanks Lorenz! I'm looking forward to developing that too. Kept me up most of the night thinking on it......curiouser and curiouser!!!

Best regards,
Jim

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

As for the traslations, this is my free version ...

Finally, a translation that makes sense!

Thanks a million, Gonzalo

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Fernando is most modest, and by 'unschooled' simply, in my understanding, means not necessarily formally schooled in degree. In my personal estimation, often self education can exceed such categorized results....well illustrated by the knowledge he openly shares here!

Amen, Jim All of us had our formal education, but nothing beats passion in (informally) educating ourselves in the thing we really like.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks Lorenz! I'm looking forward to developing that too. Kept me up most of the night thinking on it......curiouser and curiouser!!!

Jim, as we are dealing here with supposedly the world's most famous sword/s, I'm not surprised. And I'll try to contribute to that other thread with whatever significant info I'll stumble upon.

Best regards!

Lorenz =)

[migueldiaz]

Maybe these excerpts from Medieval Swordsmanship will also help in the discussion:

[migueldiaz]

Here's the rest of the excerpts (in which only one page will be attached per post, as sometimes if the attachments are many per post, the sequence gets jumbled). So this would be page 2, and so forth, and so on:

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page 3:

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page 4:

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page 5:

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page 6:

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page 7:

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page 8:

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page 9:

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page 10 (last):

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
European Hunting Cleavers usually part of a Trousse or set. First photo is German 15th Cent. the other two similar. Falchions possibly developed from earlier versions of these type of 'butchering' tools.
Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Another incarnation of the 'chopping' sword, Dussack, Tesak etc.
Regards,
Norman.

[Gonzalo G]

Beautiful pieces, Norman, and your point of view is very interesting.
Regards

Gonzalo

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

European Hunting Cleavers usually part of a Trousse or set. First photo is German 15th Cent. the other two similar. Falchions possibly developed from earlier versions of these type of 'butchering' tools.

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Another incarnation of the 'chopping' sword, Dussack, Tesak etc.

Hi Norman,

Those are beautiful examples! Thanks for sharing those pics.

And we can surely get a lot of insights merely by observing them (and marrying those observations to the earlier remarks of Fernando, Gonzalo, Jim, and Manuel).

It appears to me then that in arming the ordinary warrior, whether in the West or in the East, the origin of his sword was that it must have come from a utilitarian civilian blade (a butcher's meat cleaver, a farmer's jungle 'bolo', etc.), that eventually found itself getting employed as a weapon (a falchion, a bracamarte, or in the case of the Igorots, the pinahig).

Thanks again,

Lorenz

PS - Ward, where are those images you promised? [looks at watch]

[migueldiaz]

Reviewing the info posted above on the falchion, the bracamarte, and the other cleavers and choppers, one cannot help but see a possible similarity in the evolution of certain ethnic Phil. swords.

For instance in the case of European swords, it was proposed that the falchion was an intermediate form (see att. below), and said falchion then eventually morphed into the cutlass, the saber, etc.

As an aside, one wonders whether the original generic Phil. bolo when it became the pinahig or the binagong or the bangkung, were the equivalent of such intermediate form.

And then (to continue the speculation) the Moros merely further pushed the envelope until they came up with the pira and the kampilan, for instance.

[We can recall that Cato said that the bangkung is a much older form amongst the Moro blades.]

Once again, these are my own "unschooled" musings Hopefully we get inputs from the experts, to either validate or refute this (wild) theory!

But we are really talking here about European cutlasses and 16th century Spanish swords. So pardon me for the digression ...

[Gonzalo G]

Neverthless, we must distinguish among straight blades with curved edges, from the curved blades...of course, also with curved edges. I think the weapon called alfanje had a curved blade, and according with Beraiz, also the scimitar. but in the case of the last one I feel not certainty.

[fernando]

Hi Gonzalo

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Mmmm, Fer...I don´t believe the arabs of the conquest used any curved sword, but very late on the 15th Century ...

I wonder if there is solid evidence of that, as i have been reading otherwise; as if all three sword types, straight, alfanje and scimitar have shown up at the reconquest period.
Not that all such sources can be considered reliable, but some serious guy wrote that:
... in the combats following the 711 Arabic invasion, Asturians and Leonese used their (straight) swords of Roman tradition, in contrast to Persians and Arabs that exhibited the recurved models of their country of origin.
In a context that:
... the type of swords used by the folks of the center and northern Peninsula, inherited from Roman civilization, of vertical disposition, short and solid, but lacking artistic attire, ended up being influenced by the aptitude and elegance of Muslim swords, at least in the upper parts (hilts...) by the hands of Mossarabs; this giving logic to specimens appeared by mid IX century, in Spain, Portugal and the Fench Midi, which development in European territory can not be denied.

Fernando

The pictures attached are not necessarily reliable.

.

[Jim McDougall]

Miguel, nicely done on the excellent work by Mr.Clements, those groupings of profiles really help in the discussion and looking at the development annd comparisons of types. Thank you for posting them for those of us who do not have this reference at hand.

Also, well placed digression to the Philippine versions of these, as it is always to see the widespread diffusion of many European influences into other cultures, and if none directly exists, the similarity regardless.

Norman....(thinking of the 'Crocodile Dundee' cliche').....
..now THATS a cleaver!
and thank you for those dussacks, granddaddies of my favorite, the Scottish basket hilt.

All best regards,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by fernando

I wonder if there is solid evidence of that, as i have been reading otherwise; as if all three sword types, straight, alfanje and scimitar have shown up at the reconquest period.
Not that all such sources can be considered reliable, but some serious guy wrote that:
... in the combats following the 711 Arabic invasion, Asturians and Leonese used their (straight) swords of Roman tradition, in contrast to Persians and Arabs that exhibited the recurved models of their country of origin.
In a context that:

Yes, Fer, there is much evidence that the islamic armies used straight swords easily until at least the 13th Century, if not latter. The nasrid caliph Boabdil used a straight sword. For easyness to find, just look into the books from David Nicolle. Which is your source? I don´t have much confidence in literary sources. They must be revised carefully. Remember that Cervantes did not fought the arabs in Spain, but the foreign turks on the sea, and in that time the knowledge of turkish weapons was already introduced in Spain. But you are not speaking of Cervantes, so, which is your source?
I also think that the most inmediate influence over the christian cavalry swords were not the roman swords, but the visigotic. Even the late roman cavalry sword, the spatha, is in great debt to the sword of the germanic peoples.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Gonzalo G]

Jim, I don´t see any european influence there. Maybe even the machete is the result of the influence of the indonesian-phlippine over occidental weapons, isn´t it? At least, I can trace the ancestry of the machete among this eastern patterns, and not in the european arsenal. I don´t deny the mutual influences, but they are not something as the result of the "civilizing influence of Europe over the world." Philippines and Indonesia were first influenced by the indian and islamic cultures, but they never lost their local cultural identities.