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#31 | |
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Regards Miguel |
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#32 | |
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Regards Miguel |
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#33 |
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I have seen some stamps like that on Persian qaddara.
One member said that these Persian blades are from Caucasus, but he's a not a reliable source on Persian weapons. But I come back to your blade, the question stays open, it could be from Persia or Caucasus (because of the groves similar to some shashqa). |
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#34 | |
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Regards Miguel |
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A few different saif/sayf references. The top left image is from George Stones book, he shows an Indian sword and a sword from Java as being saif, Stone mentions saif as having a "hooked pommel". The top right image from the "Official Report of the Calcutta International Exhibition, 1883-84" mentions two types of Indian swords as being "saif-i-janubi" and "saif-i-halbi". The third image is from "Oriental Armour" by H. Russell Robinson, he calls Mamluk swords "saif". The bottom two images are from Artzi, they show two completely different types of swords being called "saif".
Last edited by estcrh; 21st October 2015 at 08:32 PM. |
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#36 |
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All these swords are Arabian saifs. What is your point?
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#37 | ||
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Estcrh, you may call every sword a Saif... and you'll be right. But please do not manipulate and misrepresent my words! I did not say that Artzi was wrong, and I did not say that Saif is always straight. I said it is (usually) straight. look, out of all Saifs pictured only a few have curved shamshir-like blades, most are almost straight, very slightly curved, this is what I meant by straigh(ish), and this may be wrong term. and also that there's a mistake in Stone's description, even though he stated that Saif is an Arab sword (not Indian), the mistake is in Indian and Javan description of 2 Arab swords. Based on it, you concluded that Saif: "can be Indian in origin" (I quote your own words). I am afraid I cannot help if you need more proof and evidences of said.
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#41 | |
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Saif is the Arabic word for sword, no more. It can be - and not should be - apply to Arabic swords. Another point a kilij has not necessary a yelman. It's a sword in Turkish, point. I have a kilij with no yelman. I never saw a tulwar with an Ottoman hilt. But I'm sure that's exist somewhere, true or fake... I have seen a lot of strange combinations since the lats years... And again the origin of the blade doesn't define a sword. An Arabian sword with a Persian blade is an Arabian sword, called sometimes saif sometimes Arabian shamshir by collectors... Kubur |
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#42 | |
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Every sword can be called a saif if you are using Arabic. Just like how every sword can be called sword if you are using English. The swords you have posted are all Arabic, so naturally an Arab who probably used that sword would still call it 'saif' As for saifs being straight or straight-ish there are elements of truth in it but I do not know any reference that mentions Arabs using only straight or straight-ish examples. All was used, but mildly curved swords were favoured. |
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While you are replying to Alex here I must say that I find Artzi's description of saif meaning curved sword is incorrect.
Saif does not translate to curved sword. Nor were curved swords the only swords called 'saif' Every sword, be it curved or not, is called saif in Arabic. |
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Btw Eric,
Usamah ibn Almunkidh is an Arab, not 'saracenic' whatever that means. |
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#46 | |
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going back to original topic, anyone can translate this: |
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I was sent this quote supposedly from "The Arms and Armour of Arabia in the 18Th-19th and 20th Centuries", Robert Elgood, 1994. Since I do not have the book I can not verify it this is correct, if anyone does have it maybe they can check and see if it is. Quote:
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Also, he mentioned the term 'sabre' which is the key term here, rather than curved which can be confusing. The arab swords with a shallow curve are still considered sabres. As for the word 'Tegh' being Arabic, I believe thats completely wrong. Its a Persian word. It has nothing to do with a hilt type, I am afraid. It has to do with the object as a whole. Yes, the tulwar hilted sword will be called a saif, by an Arab using the Arabic language. So is the many other types of swords. |
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It is amazing that you talk to each others and you don't give a shit to what i wrote previously. If you take in consideration the others you will learn something. I can understand that people are leaving this forum with such a low level. And I talk about you three guys!
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Apologies to anyone I may have offended. Kubur, we are basically on the same line, thus I did not see a necessity to respond to you. Would it count if I nodded as I read your comment? Eric; the issue is that local terms are being confused with 'collector' terms. There should be a post dedicated to what collectors should call items and what the locals and users of those items (historically or contemporary) called said items. |
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Kuber, do you have any references to back up your views? Quote:
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#55 | |
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- catalogues like Pinchot or Hales? - or scientific references like Elgood? Yes I have "The Arms and Armour of Arabia in the 18Th-19th and 20th Centuries". ![]() |
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#56 | |||
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Robinson was relaying a quote from Usamah's memoirs, he was describing the equipment of an Emir in Ayyubid times Quote:
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#57 | |
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Since you have Elgoods book can you verify the quote I posted, does he have anything else to say on the subject ? |
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#58 | |
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Yep, but the key point is that Usamah ibn almunkidh is an Arab from the Banu Munkidh tribe. |
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#59 | |
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I suggest to read also Alexander and Zaki. |
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