TWO MATCHLOCK MUSKETS for ID and COMMENT

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Albert

For the forumites who don't have the Egerton book.

Thanks Albert for posting this. Interesting that the stock shape of my #1 does not appear here.
Stu

[rickystl]

Thanks for posting this. I'll have to get this book. And a couple others I still don't have. Rick.

[Springfield03]

Very neat matchlock muskets you have there.

Albert, which particular book are those pages taken from? I'll have to pick it up.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Springfield03

Very neat matchlock muskets you have there.

Albert, which particular book are those pages taken from? I'll have to pick it up.

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Book...26an%3Degerton
Here you go....

[David R]

Re. breech plugs in toradors, this subject has come up a couple of times at meetings of the Royal Armouries Association. According to one of the curators a slightly oversized plug is made, the breech area heated to red, and the plug hammered in. It seems a bit unsafe to us, but the design lasted so must function well enough.

[rickystl]

Originally Posted by David R

Re. breech plugs in toradors, this subject has come up a couple of times at meetings of the Royal Armouries Association. According to one of the curators a slightly oversized plug is made, the breech area heated to red, and the plug hammered in. It seems a bit unsafe to us, but the design lasted so must function well enough.

Hi David.
I believe that method of sealing the breech is correct. And it appears so when you look at the end of the breech. In effect, welding it closed.
If you Google "mughal musket" there is a neat You Tube vidio about these barrels where they actually cut the breech section. But there is a big question they do not explain: There is a school of thought that the breech section of these barrels have a slightly larger "powder chamber" at the breech end, similar to a European hand gonne. While others believe the bore is the same size for the full length with just a heavier breech area on the outside to accomodate heavier loads. Honestly, I don't know.
By coincidence, I have a Torador I plan on making into a shooter. The barrel is in good condition, but something is lodged in the bore near the breech end - but it is NOT loaded. So I plan on having the plug drilled out and a new threaded breech plug made while having the bore burnished smooth. I'll take good photos along the way and will be able to study the open breech area and take measurements and will finally be able to answer the question.
For some reason this question of the breech area of these Torador barrels has bugged me for years. It's on my near term "to do" projects list. LOL I'll eventually report back with my progress.
Rick.

[Pukka Bundook]

Rick,

What you feel at the breech is very likely the powder chamber.
In these muskets the chamber is Smaller bore than the barrel, so what appears an obstruction, is just this narrower piece.

The old Hand Gonnes were the same, with a narrower bored breech, initially made that way so the serpentine powder didn't get too compressed, as if it Was compressed it wouldn't ignite.

Question for you if I may;
does the stock fit under the arm when aiming?
I have never had hold of a torador, so am in the dark!

I recently purchased a couple of barrels and a torador needing parts, but they are still in the UK at present.

Thanks for your time Rick,

Best wishes Richard.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Rick,

What you feel at the breech is very likely the powder chamber.
In these muskets the chamber is Smaller bore than the barrel, so what appears an obstruction, is just this narrower piece.

The old Hand Gonnes were the same, with a narrower bored breech, initially made that way so the serpentine powder didn't get too compressed, as if it Was compressed it wouldn't ignite.

Question for you if I may;
does the stock fit under the arm when aiming?
I have never had hold of a torador, so am in the dark!

I recently purchased a couple of barrels and a torador needing parts, but they are still in the UK at present.

Thanks for your time Rick,

Best wishes Richard.

Hi Richard,
....so this raises an interesting question, as Rick, I believe, is of the opinion that the so called powder chamber is LARGER than the bore. I have no proof to the contrary, but do not believe that this would be "safe practice". Any guns with VISIBLE powder chambers such as screwoff barrel pistols have a smaller powder chamber than the bore diameter.
The outcome of this "mystery" will be interesting.....
As far as how a Torador is held for firing I guess is up to the user, much as it would be with modern firearms....some hold the stock to the shoulder and some to various points of the upper arm. Depends on what is comfortable and produces the right result.
Stu

[Pukka Bundook]

Stu,

Re the powder chamber;
Yes, I know for a fact some are a smaller bore than the main part of the barrel, But! ...India is such a large and diverse country, I am quite sure that a Larger chamber may also be encountered, in fact I seem to remember seeing such a diagram at one time.
This was a long time ago, but recall that said powder chamber held an awful lot, like over 200 grains (7 drams) or so.
Whether smaller or larger, it appears a carry-over from the original introduced arms it copied, and not necessary with corned powder.
Re. breechplug;
I too have heard that these were heated and for lack of a better term, forge -welded in place.
If I am to fire mine when it gets here, I will do it by remote for a start, until I feel confident nothing is going to come adrift!

One barrel I have, has had a peg inserted in the breech from below to take the recoil. This has come away and needs to be replaced.

How the piece is held;
Thanks for that!
I have seen toradors that were too long in the butt-stock to fit the shoulder, so wondered if they fit under the arm, Or, as some are very straight -stocked, wondered if they fit Over the shoulder!
Can I ask how Yours fit you?

Best,
Richard.

[rickystl]

Hi Richard.

The gun has both front and rear sights. So the gun was designed to be AIMED, not just pointed as is the case with a front sight only. What's interesting, is if I bring the butt stock up to the cup of my shoulder in the normal manner, it's easy to aim. But muzzle heavy due to the long barrel. (This was easier to do 40 years ago LOL). But, if I cup the butt stock under my arm pit, it's also easy to aim, and steadys the barrel easier. So it would be easy to aim either way. Which makes me wonder if they were designed this way? Interesting.

Breech Area: The bore inside the muzzle end measures about .59 caliber (about 15mm). The OUTSIDE of the rear of the breech area measures 1 9/16" (about 39.69mm). I used a piece of wire and put it through the vent hole at the breech. And the INSIDE of the breech area measures about 1 3/16" (about 30.16mm). The breech plug ends just behind the vent hole, which would be normal. And the plug seems to be about 1/2" (about 12.7mm) deep into the breech area.
So what this tells me, is that the breech area is definately LARGER than the bore diameter. My best guess at the moment, is that the inside of the breech area is tapered, or some what cone shaped, and tapers smaller as it meets the standard bore diameter. Hmmmm. The only way to know for sure is to drill out the plug material. Which I will do. I plan on taking the barrel off this afternoon. I'll take good pics of the breech before sending it off to the gunsmith.

If the breech area is, as I suspect, cone shaped, this will present some potential ballistic and cleaning issues I won't cover at the moment. Just have to wait and see wnat the interior looks like. Wish me luck. LOL
Rick.

[rickystl]

Well, I dis-assembled the gun. But since this Thread turned out a little long, I thought I would start a new Thread titled: Torador Barrel Investigation.
Rick.