Translation needed on Kilij koftgari

erlikhan · 28th May 2005, 09:11 AM

This ebay auction ended yesterday. Closing price made me wonder about the inscriptions on the blade. I request friends with Arabic knowledge to translate it or just to convert to Latin alphabet
regards

M.carter · 28th May 2005, 01:59 PM

Hi Erlikhan,

In the first pic you posted, from top:

"There is only one god"

"There is no man better than Ali, and no sword better than Thulfiqar"

The third cartouche, I need a closer pic.

On the other side of the blade (2nd pic):

"What god wills"/ "God wills it"

Rick · 28th May 2005, 04:14 PM

Mark ?

M.carter · 28th May 2005, 06:09 PM

Thats better. "Muhammad Rasoul Allah"

"Muhammad is the messenger of God"

erlikhan · 29th May 2005, 01:04 AM

I see. So nothing personal like an owner name. Thank you.
regards

Andrew · 29th May 2005, 07:06 AM

Interesting to see a Star of David (Seal of Solomon?) in that last cartouche. How old is this weapon? Is this common?

M.carter · 29th May 2005, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Interesting to see a Star of David (Seal of Solomon?) in that last cartouche. How old is this weapon? Is this common?

This sign was fairly common with the Ottomans, seen on buildings, weaponry and many more places. I do not know what it meant for them though.

derek · 29th May 2005, 07:42 PM

Solomon is an important figure in Islam. He was regarded for his wisdom, poetry, understanding the language of birds, and for commanding genii (demons).

-d

derek · 29th May 2005, 07:45 PM

Ah,

Just made the connection to the Ottomans. Suleyman the Just 1520-1560 was regarded as the "second Solomon", who was regarded as a perfect king.

-d

Rivkin · 29th May 2005, 07:57 PM

Well... My grandmother's clan is turkish-tatar (Bucharin). First appears in books in 1495 ad, however on their tamga (coat of arms) they had a star of david. As far as I remember according to Baskakov it was supposed to symbolize that they descended from jewish turks (khazars) and therefore already existed as a clan around V-IXth centuries.

There are in total 29 clan that are attributed to be "khazar" clans, all with the six point star in their tamgas.

However this theory, like all "jewish" theories on why is this symbol appears here and there need to be weighted against another fact - as a "seal of Solomon" hexagram was in extremely wide use, by mystics of all religions, and even not only by mystics, for example in Islam:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive...playMode=print

or in Christianity:
http://www.nork.ru/burg/seal.html

So it's actually a very common islamic/christian ornament. Now on the other hand specifically for european swords hexgram was a very popular symbol of smiths, I think it's symbolized unity of fire and metal or something like this (I hope to be corrected).

On the other hand sometimes even through the most simple explanation would be to interpret is as an "islamic symbol", it's actually "jewish" - mints of Seymur, or Georgian/Armenian/Ethiopean (in the latter case - more based on mythology than on facts) kings symolizing their jewish descent (while in case of Tbilisi mint on the surface it appears as if they are merely copying late Abbasid's coins) or even later minted coins in typical islamic countries, sometimes actually are "jewish" in origin.

erlikhan · 30th May 2005, 06:52 PM

I am not an expert, what I guess is, some symbols are common in all Semitic religions. Hexagram was not a direct Islamic religious symbol, but some magical,talismanic meanings were loaded to it, and used to bring some kind of good luck. Solomon is accepted holy in Islam too, but what I dont remember is, was he said to be capable of making magics?
This is the picture of 16th c. Turkish pirate-admiral Barbaros Hayrettin's banner. Very interesting,you can see hexagram together with another symbol right over it. Masonic compasses? Can easily be speculated like that but not. Ali's sword Zulfikar, with 16th c. hilt. Why is it stylized so? I dont know . Perhaps cause compasses are important in navigation?

Aqtai · 30th May 2005, 10:16 PM

Although this sword is a Kilij, I think the maker and/or the owner must have been Shi'i. As it is Shi'ites who have a great reverance for Ali, the nephew of the Prophet Muhammad. A Sunni Owner/Swordsmith would have just stuck to 'La Ilaha Illa Allah, Muhammad Rassool Allah". 'There is no god but God, Muhammad is the messenger of God'.

I also believe that six pointed stars are a common symbol in geometric arabesques. Indeed stars in General are frequently shown in Arabesque patterns.

Rivkin · 30th May 2005, 11:21 PM

I would disagree with Shia attribution - Caucasus is almost entirely Sunni (and the only country with a very significant Shia influence is christian Armenia), but "No sword, but Zulfakar, no warrior but Ali" and other similar slogans are _very_ popular among caucasian smiths - at first it seemed strange to me as well, and I thought it to be something that was inherited through Iranian occupation of Dagestan, however now I just accept it as a fact that I don't know how to explain.

Concerning semitic religions - I would not say so, they are quite different (when you talk about Baal worshipping vs. Islam for example etc.). It's more the fact that islam, christianty and judaism simple descend from one religion - judaism or if you are a muslim, like those who tought me, - descend from the original islam, later changed by jews and christians.

Therefore some of the symbolics is being shared, but specifically when it comes to the hexagram:

1. It's a magical symbol, for Solomon was considered to command the multitudes of demons.

2. It's extremely easy to draw, and therefore it has a great advantage over other symbols - if you read the bible, there are many symbols god specifically designated to identify jewish tribes, but none of them is in use even by the jews today, because they are extremely hard to draw.
Same story with the crescent and the cross - these symbols became most popular in part because they are very easy to draw.
Same goes for soviet and nazi symbolics - those were selected with one specific requirement - they should be easy to draw for the masses (and what can be easier than a pentagramm or a zig-rune ?)

3. Another solomonic symbol is a pentagramm, and this symbol is traditionally specifically associated with the control over the world of demons, and therefore even more related to the occult.

erlikhan · 31st May 2005, 12:50 AM

To me, Shia relation is not surprizing at all, as in history much more Turks in Turkey were Alevi which is close to Shia about love to Ali, and all Azerbaijan population and Iran Azeris are still shia. Kilij was used not only by sunni Turks but all of these. It could easily be ordered by an shia customer and be decorated according to his wishes. Plus, the love of shiites to Ali doesnt mean that Sunnis hate him or dont respect him. I think especially his bravery,legendary sword and wars were famous and admired among all in past. This sympathy can be an addition to the explanation of the popularity of these slogans.

Yannis · 31st May 2005, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

So it's actually a very common islamic/christian ornament. Now on the other hand specifically for european swords hexgram was a very popular symbol of smiths, I think it's symbolized unity of fire and metal or something like this (I hope to be corrected).

Actually among other symbolism it was one of the alchemist symbols of middle ages. It means the unity of fire and water. Fire was a triangle pointing upwards and water a triangle pointing down.

As we know alchemy and bladesmithing were very close for hundrend years. Still they are, if we think chemistry as modern alchemy

28th May 2005, 09:11 AM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Translation needed on Kilij koftgari This ebay auction ended yesterday. Closing price made me wonder about the inscriptions on the blade. I request friends with Arabic knowledge to translate it or just to convert to Latin alphabet regards Attached Images Last edited by erlikhan; 28th May 2005 at 11:28 AM.

28th May 2005, 04:14 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Any better ? Mark ? Attached Images

30th May 2005, 06:52 PM	#11
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I am not an expert, what I guess is, some symbols are common in all Semitic religions. Hexagram was not a direct Islamic religious symbol, but some magical,talismanic meanings were loaded to it, and used to bring some kind of good luck. Solomon is accepted holy in Islam too, but what I dont remember is, was he said to be capable of making magics? This is the picture of 16th c. Turkish pirate-admiral Barbaros Hayrettin's banner. Very interesting,you can see hexagram together with another symbol right over it. Masonic compasses? Can easily be speculated like that but not. Ali's sword Zulfikar, with 16th c. hilt. Why is it stylized so? I dont know . Perhaps cause compasses are important in navigation? Attached Images

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28th May 2005, 01:59 PM	#2
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Hi Erlikhan, In the first pic you posted, from top: "There is only one god" "There is no man better than Ali, and no sword better than Thulfiqar" The third cartouche, I need a closer pic. On the other side of the blade (2nd pic): "What god wills"/ "God wills it"

28th May 2005, 06:09 PM	#4
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Thats better. "Muhammad Rasoul Allah" "Muhammad is the messenger of God"

29th May 2005, 01:04 AM	#5
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I see. So nothing personal like an owner name. Thank you. regards

29th May 2005, 07:06 AM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Interesting to see a Star of David (Seal of Solomon?) in that last cartouche. How old is this weapon? Is this common?

29th May 2005, 07:42 PM	#8
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Solomon is an important figure in Islam. He was regarded for his wisdom, poetry, understanding the language of birds, and for commanding genii (demons). -d

29th May 2005, 07:45 PM	#9
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	Ah, Just made the connection to the Ottomans. Suleyman the Just 1520-1560 was regarded as the "second Solomon", who was regarded as a perfect king. -d

29th May 2005, 07:57 PM	#10
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well... My grandmother's clan is turkish-tatar (Bucharin). First appears in books in 1495 ad, however on their tamga (coat of arms) they had a star of david. As far as I remember according to Baskakov it was supposed to symbolize that they descended from jewish turks (khazars) and therefore already existed as a clan around V-IXth centuries. There are in total 29 clan that are attributed to be "khazar" clans, all with the six point star in their tamgas. However this theory, like all "jewish" theories on why is this symbol appears here and there need to be weighted against another fact - as a "seal of Solomon" hexagram was in extremely wide use, by mystics of all religions, and even not only by mystics, for example in Islam: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive...playMode=print or in Christianity: http://www.nork.ru/burg/seal.html So it's actually a very common islamic/christian ornament. Now on the other hand specifically for european swords hexgram was a very popular symbol of smiths, I think it's symbolized unity of fire and metal or something like this (I hope to be corrected). On the other hand sometimes even through the most simple explanation would be to interpret is as an "islamic symbol", it's actually "jewish" - mints of Seymur, or Georgian/Armenian/Ethiopean (in the latter case - more based on mythology than on facts) kings symolizing their jewish descent (while in case of Tbilisi mint on the surface it appears as if they are merely copying late Abbasid's coins) or even later minted coins in typical islamic countries, sometimes actually are "jewish" in origin.

30th May 2005, 10:16 PM	#12
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Although this sword is a Kilij, I think the maker and/or the owner must have been Shi'i. As it is Shi'ites who have a great reverance for Ali, the nephew of the Prophet Muhammad. A Sunni Owner/Swordsmith would have just stuck to 'La Ilaha Illa Allah, Muhammad Rassool Allah". 'There is no god but God, Muhammad is the messenger of God'. I also believe that six pointed stars are a common symbol in geometric arabesques. Indeed stars in General are frequently shown in Arabesque patterns.

30th May 2005, 11:21 PM	#13
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I would disagree with Shia attribution - Caucasus is almost entirely Sunni (and the only country with a very significant Shia influence is christian Armenia), but "No sword, but Zulfakar, no warrior but Ali" and other similar slogans are _very_ popular among caucasian smiths - at first it seemed strange to me as well, and I thought it to be something that was inherited through Iranian occupation of Dagestan, however now I just accept it as a fact that I don't know how to explain. Concerning semitic religions - I would not say so, they are quite different (when you talk about Baal worshipping vs. Islam for example etc.). It's more the fact that islam, christianty and judaism simple descend from one religion - judaism or if you are a muslim, like those who tought me, - descend from the original islam, later changed by jews and christians. Therefore some of the symbolics is being shared, but specifically when it comes to the hexagram: 1. It's a magical symbol, for Solomon was considered to command the multitudes of demons. 2. It's extremely easy to draw, and therefore it has a great advantage over other symbols - if you read the bible, there are many symbols god specifically designated to identify jewish tribes, but none of them is in use even by the jews today, because they are extremely hard to draw. Same story with the crescent and the cross - these symbols became most popular in part because they are very easy to draw. Same goes for soviet and nazi symbolics - those were selected with one specific requirement - they should be easy to draw for the masses (and what can be easier than a pentagramm or a zig-rune ?) 3. Another solomonic symbol is a pentagramm, and this symbol is traditionally specifically associated with the control over the world of demons, and therefore even more related to the occult.

31st May 2005, 12:50 AM	#14
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	To me, Shia relation is not surprizing at all, as in history much more Turks in Turkey were Alevi which is close to Shia about love to Ali, and all Azerbaijan population and Iran Azeris are still shia. Kilij was used not only by sunni Turks but all of these. It could easily be ordered by an shia customer and be decorated according to his wishes. Plus, the love of shiites to Ali doesnt mean that Sunnis hate him or dont respect him. I think especially his bravery,legendary sword and wars were famous and admired among all in past. This sympathy can be an addition to the explanation of the popularity of these slogans.