A warrior's keris

BluErf · 16th December 2004, 03:09 PM

Just an observation -- the ivory has parallel grain, which would suggest marine ivory. Maybe the 'webbing' is the 'marble-like' patterning of the interior of a walrus tusk.

ronpakis · 16th December 2004, 08:08 PM

well blu erf who knows, interesting to think what kind of ivory it could be. im always very sceptic when i hear the word ivory because it can be so many different types of material. once i have had an absolutely very nice maduran ukiran made from ivory. but when i tried to drill the hole deeper to fit my maduran keris it smelled like plastic. i have seen so many real and fakes but this one was a very nice but fake sucker a well it forces you to stay focused on whatever you buy

Mark · 16th December 2004, 08:29 PM

I believe Radu is of the opinion that it is fossilized mammoth tooth ivory rather than tusk ivory. The web pattern would thus be the layers of dentin & enamel, and you can see a little "flaw" nearer the left edge that would be the beginning of the nerve channel.

Battara · 16th December 2004, 10:59 PM

I would call this elephant ivory. Marine ivory is yellower and darker in nature. Fossil ivory has more bands of different colors due to different absorbtion rates of minerals in the different sections of the dentine and enamel. Here is a picture of what I mean. This is the fossil ivory pommel of a datu battle barong I have:

Battara · 16th December 2004, 11:22 PM

Here is a turkish jambiya I have that has a marine (walrus) ivory hilt. Notice the yellowish hue and yet the solid middle and fragmented sides (and back) that make up the inside of the tooth: (pic sent to Lee for resizing)

Sakhti777 · 18th December 2004, 12:15 AM

A nice kris though.. common among the Kelantanese and Trengganu Malays....not much likened by the them due to its simplicity and quality of besi almost equivalent to the Malay Parang of 1940s....not much priced. It looks nice honestly, but I think it has been redressed to look more outstanding ..that what most runners did before selling it to your middleman. I think, Malay forumites must contribute more rather than giving complementary comments. A 20th century keris, not a warrior keris per say but functional to a certain extent. Honestly, I like the dress. Rajamuda..I will provide you my 'insider tips'.

nechesh · 18th December 2004, 01:05 AM

Gee, Sakhti, i think we will all look forward to your "insider tips"

Which end of the 20th century do you believe Blu's keris is from?
What do you particularly find lacking about the besi in this piece and how much can you tell without really handing the keris?
Is simplicity of form really something disliked by the Kelantanese and Trengganu Malays? By comparison to Bali and Jawa keris i find their forms somewhat simplistic, yet there is still a beauty to it.

BTW,Where exactly are you from?

BluErf · 18th December 2004, 03:40 AM

Dear Sakhti,

Thank you for your comments. I'm glad you like the keris.

It is my opinion that this is not a Northen Malayan keris; It is not even a Malay keris to begin with. Everything from the sarong to the dapur and besi suggests to me that it is of Sulawesi Bugis origins. I would like to hear your arguments on why this is a N. Malay keris.

Malay parangs (which I assume you are talking about those from Pattani, Kelantan, Trengganu) are beautiful works of art, and are status symbol wear, though not as high-status as kerises. The besi used can be of high quality too. Prices of good N Malayan parangs are getting quite high these days.

There's nothing spectacular about the dress. Its old, repaired and its a perfect fit for the blade.

As for the 'warrior's keris' remark, well, in over a thousand kerises which I have handled, this keris is one of the toughest, tempered for 80% of the length, with attendant clash marks and nicks. I would presume a keris used in combat belongs to 'warriors'. What would your definition of 'warrior keris' be?

As for the age of the keris, it could well be 20th century, but probably the earlier part of 20th century. As I mentioned, I think this keris could have been forged from European steel. One of the things that late 20th Century pandai besi fall short on is the appreciation of the 'flow of the form'. They have the technical knowledge, but lesser grasp of the aesthetics. And that is often betrayed in their execution of the keris. Also, they tend to squeeze in as much perabot as they can, as if a more complicated keris is better.

A simple form does not make a keris easier to execute well. This keris here has simple form, but its execution is elegant, without compromising functionality. What more do we ask for in a keris of the fabled Sulawesi Bugis?

I look forward to hearing from you again.

Regards,
BluErf

16th December 2004, 08:08 PM	#2
ronpakis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: netherlands Posts: 75	ivory well blu erf who knows, interesting to think what kind of ivory it could be. im always very sceptic when i hear the word ivory because it can be so many different types of material. once i have had an absolutely very nice maduran ukiran made from ivory. but when i tried to drill the hole deeper to fit my maduran keris it smelled like plastic. i have seen so many real and fakes but this one was a very nice but fake sucker a well it forces you to stay focused on whatever you buy

16th December 2004, 10:59 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,367	I would call this elephant ivory. Marine ivory is yellower and darker in nature. Fossil ivory has more bands of different colors due to different absorbtion rates of minerals in the different sections of the dentine and enamel. Here is a picture of what I mean. This is the fossil ivory pommel of a datu battle barong I have: Attached Images Last edited by Battara; 16th December 2004 at 11:13 PM.

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16th December 2004, 03:09 PM	#1
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Just an observation -- the ivory has parallel grain, which would suggest marine ivory. Maybe the 'webbing' is the 'marble-like' patterning of the interior of a walrus tusk.

16th December 2004, 08:29 PM	#3
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I believe Radu is of the opinion that it is fossilized mammoth tooth ivory rather than tusk ivory. The web pattern would thus be the layers of dentin & enamel, and you can see a little "flaw" nearer the left edge that would be the beginning of the nerve channel.

16th December 2004, 11:22 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,367	Here is a turkish jambiya I have that has a marine (walrus) ivory hilt. Notice the yellowish hue and yet the solid middle and fragmented sides (and back) that make up the inside of the tooth: (pic sent to Lee for resizing)

18th December 2004, 12:15 AM	#6
Sakhti777 Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Penang Posts: 14	A nice kris though.. common among the Kelantanese and Trengganu Malays....not much likened by the them due to its simplicity and quality of besi almost equivalent to the Malay Parang of 1940s....not much priced. It looks nice honestly, but I think it has been redressed to look more outstanding ..that what most runners did before selling it to your middleman. I think, Malay forumites must contribute more rather than giving complementary comments. A 20th century keris, not a warrior keris per say but functional to a certain extent. Honestly, I like the dress. Rajamuda..I will provide you my 'insider tips'.

18th December 2004, 01:05 AM	#7
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Gee, Sakhti, i think we will all look forward to your "insider tips" Which end of the 20th century do you believe Blu's keris is from? What do you particularly find lacking about the besi in this piece and how much can you tell without really handing the keris? Is simplicity of form really something disliked by the Kelantanese and Trengganu Malays? By comparison to Bali and Jawa keris i find their forms somewhat simplistic, yet there is still a beauty to it. BTW,Where exactly are you from?

18th December 2004, 03:40 AM	#8
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Dear Sakhti, Thank you for your comments. I'm glad you like the keris. It is my opinion that this is not a Northen Malayan keris; It is not even a Malay keris to begin with. Everything from the sarong to the dapur and besi suggests to me that it is of Sulawesi Bugis origins. I would like to hear your arguments on why this is a N. Malay keris. Malay parangs (which I assume you are talking about those from Pattani, Kelantan, Trengganu) are beautiful works of art, and are status symbol wear, though not as high-status as kerises. The besi used can be of high quality too. Prices of good N Malayan parangs are getting quite high these days. There's nothing spectacular about the dress. Its old, repaired and its a perfect fit for the blade. As for the 'warrior's keris' remark, well, in over a thousand kerises which I have handled, this keris is one of the toughest, tempered for 80% of the length, with attendant clash marks and nicks. I would presume a keris used in combat belongs to 'warriors'. What would your definition of 'warrior keris' be? As for the age of the keris, it could well be 20th century, but probably the earlier part of 20th century. As I mentioned, I think this keris could have been forged from European steel. One of the things that late 20th Century pandai besi fall short on is the appreciation of the 'flow of the form'. They have the technical knowledge, but lesser grasp of the aesthetics. And that is often betrayed in their execution of the keris. Also, they tend to squeeze in as much perabot as they can, as if a more complicated keris is better. A simple form does not make a keris easier to execute well. This keris here has simple form, but its execution is elegant, without compromising functionality. What more do we ask for in a keris of the fabled Sulawesi Bugis? I look forward to hearing from you again. Regards, BluErf