Ancient, armed Indian from Kabul

B.I · 20th May 2005, 09:06 PM

i think you misunderstand my original enquiry. i was asking where people thought the lance came from. the lance is not a figment of the artists imagination, it exists in the collection, as do all the pieces illustrated in the catalogue.
if it is misrepresented in the image, it is down to the artist's lack of knowledge of arms. my question and enquiry still remains. does anyone think this could be oriental, and are familiar with this style of shoe butt on eastern weapons.

Radu Transylvanicus · 20th May 2005, 09:16 PM

It would be interesting to see if anyone has a Tsarskoe-Selo catalogue with photographs of such lance ? Or a second drawing of the same lance, perhaps ? If anyone probably Wolviex, Jens or Jim does ...

Jim McDougall · 22nd May 2005, 06:53 AM

I have been reading this thread with great interest, and as always, Jens has posed a fascinating topic. There have been some great observations on this paradoxical figure, especially the incredibly astute observation by Rick that the sword carried is a dha, with compelling agreement by Andrew and Mark whose expertise on these is clear.

I think Brian's assessment of the figure as being composite depicting holdings within the Musee d' Tsarskoe-Selo is right on target. Although I don't have a copy of this catalog, I think it is available in reprint, and sounds like another item I would like to have a copy of. As Brian has well described, in the period when this work was compiled, there was very little material on arms and armour, especially oriental items, which were viewed primarily as exotic and interesting trophies or collectibles by Europeans.

While looking at the illustration, and overlooking the fact that we presume this is an artists impression of an 'armed Indian from Kabul' using components from a museum being worn grouped together, I felt compelled to determine how these incongruous items ended up worn by an Indian, and why he was in Kabul. In addition to the already well placed comments, just a few notes (keeping in mind the hypothetical perspective).

Afghanistan has always been largely divided, and very diverse ethnically. The eastern part of the country is primarily Pathan with that being the common thread that denominates the many independant and often at odds tribes.
The country has as been noted, been a suzerein of Persia mostly, while in the same manner annexed nominally by the Mughals. This included regions of now Pakistan, Baluchistan and Sind. The regions in Afghanistan were of mostly the three primary city states of Herat, Kandahar and Kabul. As has also been noted, while Afghans, especially the Pathans, could hardly be subdued, they would become mercenaries for the Mughals.

Concerning the costume, for which good comparisons have already been shown, I would like to note that H. Robinson ("Oriental Arms" p.101) there is a description of fabric armour from central India and Rajputana that seemed to derive from that of the steppes and Central Asia. Apparantly the quilted fabric included a hoodlike cap which was sometimes fitted with a metal nasal, and a long straight coat. This would seem a variation of this, with the char aina added. I believe that the ostrich feather was highly favored by Rajputs as a heraldic or regimental device as well.
On the lance, which seems the key item unresolved here, I can see what Brian is referring to on the shoe, which seems to have some resemblance to the carved wood and fluted styles seen on many early jousting type lances of Europe. The flattened and fluted orb style is however seen on a number of oriental lances as seen in Stone and it seems Mahratta type lances have similar elements, but this needs more research.

While I can agree that warriors of Pathan tribes would likely never have worn such costume, even as mercenaries for the Mughals, the Afghans to the west seem to have been more receptive to outside influences in arms and armour, much as they were in the latter 19th century. During the British Raj the Afghan army adopted many British styles including the Albert helmets and even wore a form of kilt in some units.

The dha? There I think we return to artistic license as I cannot imagine these finding use in these regions, even with the plausible suggestion by Mark of having come from earlier campaigns in Burma.

The period intended for the figure, probably latter 18th century.

Best regards,
Jim

tom hyle · 22nd May 2005, 12:03 PM

I'm pretty sure the armour is patterned chainmail with plates, like what BI and Aqtai have shown us.

Jim McDougall · 22nd May 2005, 04:03 PM

Its really hard to tell by the drawing as it appears to be fabric, however if chain mail it would even be more in line with the Rajput type described in Robinson (op.cit.) who describes the mail as being in diamond pattern with steel studs centre. The peaked flaps downward as seen in the Egerton example shown seem also to concur.
Best regards,
Jim

B.I · 22nd May 2005, 06:05 PM

hi jim/tom,
jims assessment is eloguent, informative and annoyingly well-written, as ever :-)
its interesting that jim took the artists drawing to be possibly fabric armour and not chainmail. it could easily be, but i think that i would be more likely patterned chainmail, as tom agreed. the style of the shirt is well known, as they were late examples and many still exist in collections to compare with. also, the camail and the zirah are of a familiar pattern and if they were of fabric, they would be unusually rare (but again, possible).
i am away from my library, but does robinson state any more in his description. if not, i would assume the armour he is describing could be fabirc armour, and of the type known collogually as a shirt 'of a thousand nails'. this armour had a chequered pattern sewn into the quilted fabric and each chequer was centred with a brass stud. no chainmail though. the helmets (the one in powis is complete) was a steel bowl (khud) with fabric ear and neck sections, not a hood as you describe.
the fabric hood with a nasal bar seems more likely southern and possibly of the well known 'tipu' form, which exists in windsor, in a private london collection and in wiggingtons collection.
i'm glad you saw the point i was referring to on the lance. a silly enquiry, but it just didnt fit into the image (even an image wrongly assembled). maybe its form will jog someones memory as it would be a good discussion on its own.

i have just seen a copy of robinson, and the armour he describes is the 'wallace' type fabric armour, and not chainmail. he refers to a good example being the royal armouries suit, which has the 'hood' helmet.
i am trying to source images of the great exhibition, which i know must exist. there were a series of 'art portfolios' in the india museum, many of which illustrated arms collections of the 19thC. i am hoping they are now in the V&A and when found, i think they may yield some good starting points for comparative discussions.

Aqtai · 22nd May 2005, 08:14 PM

I also feel that the armour is mail, not a quilted aketon. In the 18th century Indians and Iranians used mail that mixed brass and steel rings in order to create patterns.

I have a picture here of Indian armour from the Victoria and Albert Museum which includes patterned mail:

22nd May 2005, 06:05 PM	#6
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi jim/tom, jims assessment is eloguent, informative and annoyingly well-written, as ever :-) its interesting that jim took the artists drawing to be possibly fabric armour and not chainmail. it could easily be, but i think that i would be more likely patterned chainmail, as tom agreed. the style of the shirt is well known, as they were late examples and many still exist in collections to compare with. also, the camail and the zirah are of a familiar pattern and if they were of fabric, they would be unusually rare (but again, possible). i am away from my library, but does robinson state any more in his description. if not, i would assume the armour he is describing could be fabirc armour, and of the type known collogually as a shirt 'of a thousand nails'. this armour had a chequered pattern sewn into the quilted fabric and each chequer was centred with a brass stud. no chainmail though. the helmets (the one in powis is complete) was a steel bowl (khud) with fabric ear and neck sections, not a hood as you describe. the fabric hood with a nasal bar seems more likely southern and possibly of the well known 'tipu' form, which exists in windsor, in a private london collection and in wiggingtons collection. i'm glad you saw the point i was referring to on the lance. a silly enquiry, but it just didnt fit into the image (even an image wrongly assembled). maybe its form will jog someones memory as it would be a good discussion on its own. i have just seen a copy of robinson, and the armour he describes is the 'wallace' type fabric armour, and not chainmail. he refers to a good example being the royal armouries suit, which has the 'hood' helmet. i am trying to source images of the great exhibition, which i know must exist. there were a series of 'art portfolios' in the india museum, many of which illustrated arms collections of the 19thC. i am hoping they are now in the V&A and when found, i think they may yield some good starting points for comparative discussions. Last edited by B.I; 22nd May 2005 at 08:23 PM.

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20th May 2005, 09:06 PM	#1
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	i think you misunderstand my original enquiry. i was asking where people thought the lance came from. the lance is not a figment of the artists imagination, it exists in the collection, as do all the pieces illustrated in the catalogue. if it is misrepresented in the image, it is down to the artist's lack of knowledge of arms. my question and enquiry still remains. does anyone think this could be oriental, and are familiar with this style of shoe butt on eastern weapons.

20th May 2005, 09:16 PM	#2
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	It would be interesting to see if anyone has a Tsarskoe-Selo catalogue with photographs of such lance ? Or a second drawing of the same lance, perhaps ? If anyone probably Wolviex, Jens or Jim does ...

22nd May 2005, 06:53 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	I have been reading this thread with great interest, and as always, Jens has posed a fascinating topic. There have been some great observations on this paradoxical figure, especially the incredibly astute observation by Rick that the sword carried is a dha, with compelling agreement by Andrew and Mark whose expertise on these is clear. I think Brian's assessment of the figure as being composite depicting holdings within the Musee d' Tsarskoe-Selo is right on target. Although I don't have a copy of this catalog, I think it is available in reprint, and sounds like another item I would like to have a copy of. As Brian has well described, in the period when this work was compiled, there was very little material on arms and armour, especially oriental items, which were viewed primarily as exotic and interesting trophies or collectibles by Europeans. While looking at the illustration, and overlooking the fact that we presume this is an artists impression of an 'armed Indian from Kabul' using components from a museum being worn grouped together, I felt compelled to determine how these incongruous items ended up worn by an Indian, and why he was in Kabul. In addition to the already well placed comments, just a few notes (keeping in mind the hypothetical perspective). Afghanistan has always been largely divided, and very diverse ethnically. The eastern part of the country is primarily Pathan with that being the common thread that denominates the many independant and often at odds tribes. The country has as been noted, been a suzerein of Persia mostly, while in the same manner annexed nominally by the Mughals. This included regions of now Pakistan, Baluchistan and Sind. The regions in Afghanistan were of mostly the three primary city states of Herat, Kandahar and Kabul. As has also been noted, while Afghans, especially the Pathans, could hardly be subdued, they would become mercenaries for the Mughals. Concerning the costume, for which good comparisons have already been shown, I would like to note that H. Robinson ("Oriental Arms" p.101) there is a description of fabric armour from central India and Rajputana that seemed to derive from that of the steppes and Central Asia. Apparantly the quilted fabric included a hoodlike cap which was sometimes fitted with a metal nasal, and a long straight coat. This would seem a variation of this, with the char aina added. I believe that the ostrich feather was highly favored by Rajputs as a heraldic or regimental device as well. On the lance, which seems the key item unresolved here, I can see what Brian is referring to on the shoe, which seems to have some resemblance to the carved wood and fluted styles seen on many early jousting type lances of Europe. The flattened and fluted orb style is however seen on a number of oriental lances as seen in Stone and it seems Mahratta type lances have similar elements, but this needs more research. While I can agree that warriors of Pathan tribes would likely never have worn such costume, even as mercenaries for the Mughals, the Afghans to the west seem to have been more receptive to outside influences in arms and armour, much as they were in the latter 19th century. During the British Raj the Afghan army adopted many British styles including the Albert helmets and even wore a form of kilt in some units. The dha? There I think we return to artistic license as I cannot imagine these finding use in these regions, even with the plausible suggestion by Mark of having come from earlier campaigns in Burma. The period intended for the figure, probably latter 18th century. Best regards, Jim

22nd May 2005, 12:03 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I'm pretty sure the armour is patterned chainmail with plates, like what BI and Aqtai have shown us.

22nd May 2005, 04:03 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Its really hard to tell by the drawing as it appears to be fabric, however if chain mail it would even be more in line with the Rajput type described in Robinson (op.cit.) who describes the mail as being in diamond pattern with steel studs centre. The peaked flaps downward as seen in the Egerton example shown seem also to concur. Best regards, Jim

22nd May 2005, 08:14 PM	#7
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I also feel that the armour is mail, not a quilted aketon. In the 18th century Indians and Iranians used mail that mixed brass and steel rings in order to create patterns. I have a picture here of Indian armour from the Victoria and Albert Museum which includes patterned mail: