hilt material ?

[Rick]

Originally Posted by vampire

hallo
rick mine old friend
a moment of peace
i did say nothing about a forgery
and i also did not take the word molded in mine reply
only if i compare it with mine pice ,it seems to miss
some sharpness yes do not read me wrong
one thihg it comes out of indonesia oke
i have spend some years there working with
pertamina oil-comp
i see the hilt is from there and it is no elephant
ivory but a other animal
and for all reasons is it handmade also in asia some
are made with other meth, oke
the big question is ,is danny happy with it
yes oke i only did try to put mine dime in this
and rick i think we started of on the wrong foot yes
let say i did oke ,soon it is new year let it be
give me your adress will mail you nice book st claus
grt jan

Jan, there is no war .

Maybe a bit of a language interpretation problem, nothing else .

I've been here too long to let this stuff get to me .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember one of my first Keris like objects .

This keris had a Madura style hilt of the same general form; when I received it I discovered to my dismay that it had been cast from the same material they make dental models from ...

[danny1976]

Vampire (jan)

why you dont send me a pm in dutch , its maybe a idea so i can understand
what you mean with youre reply,s .

I realy dont understand what u want to say to me ( us )?


Its quite clear this is a old hilt with wear of age and patin from what is genneraly cald ivory .. from elefhant or a other (sea) animal.

regards,

danny

[vampire]

danny
be happy with your ivory hilt
if i had it i put it in mine ivory tower
i think also it is from some beast
but old i do not think so ,it came not so long ago out of indonesia
sorry ,they stand on the sale sides of bali ,sorry
again ,i think you will not agree ,to bad
i hope ya understand this english .i do it again in dutch
danny
wees blij met je ivoren aankoop
net als ik zeg stop het in een ivoren toren
ik denk ook dat het van een of ander beest is
maar oud nee dit kwam pas uit indonesia
sorry .je vindt ze terug op de verkoop sides van bali
nogmaals sorry
ik denk dat we het niet eens zijn met elkaar
niet erg ik woon in amsterdam kan je altijd een heft laten
zien geen peobleem in hollands engels en malaya
groet en blijf verzamelen ,als jij het maar leuk vindt
jan groet

[Sajen]

Hello Danny,

tomorrow I will post some pictures of a very similar hilt from my collection. My one is from wood. The material from your hilt may be sperm whale like some other already assume. The surface of your hilt is vitreous, a sign for this material.

Regards,

Detlef

[David]

I think we are have just a wee bit of language difficulties here. Let me try to me clearer.
Jan, people are responding to your early post because you clearly stated "nice hilt, but no ivory".
Now you have clarified that statement by saying it is not from an elephant, but from some other animal. Perhaps you are unaware that ivory comes from many different kinds of animals. If you read the posts on this you will see that no one else here thinks it is elephant either. The consensus seems to be leaning towards marine ivory, meaning from some sea-bound mammal. It could be dunong (sea cow), it could be from a whale. But all these animals produce material that is know as ivory. Danny's hilt if clearly made from one of these ivories. Right now the only question in my mind if which one and i am not convinced we will come to any definite conclusion on that.

[danny1976]

David ,

Thanks you for trying to explain it to vampire.

I don,t think there is a problem with the language , english is not my mother language also but i can follow quite clear what everybody write,s and i hope you people can understand my writing although it is not perfect english.

The problem with jan is a think just a stubern ''i know better mentality''


Jan i will play the 'rough unpolited '' dutch man back to you maybe you can understand this way bettter?

Stop with omong kossong i realy get a kepala sakit after reading your coments !

[Rick]

Interesting Danny,
Did you say something about Bull waste and a splitting headache ?

[simatua]

Let's go back to the beginning.

looking at the pictures i asked myself is it really ivory?/ is it an old hilt?
- The kind of carving is indeed not to sharp. ( even in the early days ivory was scarce, carvers low paid, and have more time to make little masterpieces.
.....especially for someone with royal connections, looking at the symbol of the son.
imo its not patine / or worn off, looking at the front; the triangles are different size. Ivory is an hard material is does not quicly show patine, and if so the inside stays like it is.

The hot needle is just an test, and not every new material melts away.

, I cannot lay my finger behind this...what exactly the material is, but i would not say its ivory. I some hilts myself.
1. Onknown material molded?; even stands the hot knive test. ( at the backside some airholes?

2. Old ivory, with patine

[David]

Originally Posted by simatua

Let's go back to the beginning.

looking at the pictures i asked myself is it really ivory?/ is it an old hilt?
- The kind of carving is indeed not to sharp. ( even in the early days ivory was scarce, carvers low paid, and have more time to make little masterpieces.
.....especially for someone with royal connections, looking at the symbol of the son.
imo its not patine / or worn off, looking at the front; the triangles are different size. Ivory is an hard material is does not quicly show patine, and if so the inside stays like it is.

The hot needle is just an test, and not every new material melts away.

You know, the hilt is not in my hands so i guess anything is really possible, but we really have seen quite a lot of ivory hilts on this forum. This first hilt, IMO, shows all the signs of being real ivory. If they are making molds that look like this i would be sincerely impressed.
The first example you show Simatau clearly is a composite material and that shows itself very clearly as an unnatural material. Danny's hilt looks nothing like this material though.
As for age, i am less inclined to form an opinion. While ivory does not patina quickly there are many methods available to create patina and color. I am willing to except that it is possible that this is not an old hilt, that the age might have been artificially added, but the material sure looks like ivory to me regardless of the actual age. You experts might know better.

[Sajen]

Hi Danny,

here the pictures from my wooden hilt.

To Simatua: Like I write before, it's just not possible to be sure by pictures but I see grain, I see cracks at Danny's hilt so it would be a masterwork of molding when it is not some sort of ivory.

Regards,

Detlef

[danny1976]

Simatua ,

Thanks for youre input .

Personaly i think the hilt is ivory , what kind ? no idea .
I had some time,s molded hilts in my hands and the look realy different and also feel difrent (weight) but i think they can find away in indonesia to give a molded hilt a good weight.

About the hot needle test ... when i did it i realy let the needle become red and when pushd against the hilt there is verry verry short a little smell what looks the most to uhhhh burned hair , not the same but that,s the smell that will the most close tho what i can discribe.

I don,t know where you live in holland ? if its close maybe i can pass by so you can have a look and tell me youre opinion , so i can learn again a little more.

regards,

danny

[danny1976]

Hi Detlef,

Nice hilt ! Thanks for posting.

The same kind of sun , i didn,t know what it ment .


regards,

danny

[spiral]

Originally Posted by danny1976

About the hot needle test ... when i did it i realy let the needle become red and when pushd against the hilt there is verry verry short a little smell what looks the most to uhhhh burned hair , not the same but that,s the smell that will the most close tho what i can discribe.

Fascinating thread, I was wondering about Whale ivory or boxwood even but neither seems quite right to my eye and while personaly I dont realy like the hot needle test, the smell of burning hair one usualy finds with animal horn like cow,goat, buffalo etc. Occasionly when worked it smells like an old cattle shed.

When worked Tooth Ivory whether elephant or marine smells of drilled or ground teeth just like a filling at the dentist.

Spiral

[danny1976]

Hi Spiral,

Thanks for youre info ,

One thing that i know sure about this hilt is that it is no bone , maybe my nose is not al that good

It looks that we won,t find the answer here to say .yes its made from ....?
I like to thank everybody for the input and i will put the hilt on a keris and let it be nice..

Regards,

Danny

[spiral]

Originally Posted by danny1976

One thing that i know sure about this hilt is that it is no bone , maybe my nose is not al that good

I agree Danny, its definatly not bone, but horn is not bone & often has a structure of concentric rings.

Spiral

[Rick]

Horn, IMO is usually lighter in weight than marine ivory and bone .

Burning dentine does smell a bit like burning horn but definitely different .

[VANDOO]

I HAVE SEEN SEVERAL HILTS SIMULAR TO THIS ONE. THEY HAVE ALL BEEN SMALLER THIN HILTS ,I HAVE NEVER SEEN A LARGE ROBUST ONE IN THIS EXACT FORM. I HAVE SEEN LARGER MORE ROBUST ONES CARVED FROM THE ENTIRE LARGE TOOTH BUT SIZE IS LIMITED USING WHALE TEETH AS THEY ARE MUCH SMALLER THAN ELEPHANT, HIPPO OR WALRUS IVORY. I SUSPECT THEY ARE MADE FROM ONE HALF OF A LARGE SPERM WHALE TOOTH. AS MENTIONED IVORY WAS NOT EASILY COME BY IN THESE AREAS SO MAKEING TWO HULU FROM ONE TOOTH WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY DESIRABLE FROM AN ECONOMIC REASON. OF MARINE IVORY THE TWO LARGEST ARE WALRUS AND SPERM WHALE ALL THE OTHER MARINE MAMMALS TEETH WOULD NOT BE LARGE ENOUGH TO MAKE SUCH A HILT EVEN FROM THE ENTIRE TOOTH (I DON'T CONSIDER HIPPO AS MARINE IVORY).
THE SPERM WHALE TOOTH IS HOLLOW AT THE BASE AND MOSTLY SOLID TOWARDS THE TIP, MANY HAVE A LARGE BLUNT TIP OFTEN LARGER THAN THE ROOT. THE TOOTH GROWS IN CONCENTRIC RINGS LIKE A TREE DOES AND WOULD NOT HAVE THE CROSS HATCHING FOUND IN ELEPHANT TEETH OR THE CENTER HONEY COMB LOOK OF WALRUS IVORY. BONE DOES NOT HAVE CONCENTRIC RINGS LIKE YOUR HULU.
IVORY WILL CHANGE COLOR IF BURIED ON LAND OR SEA, THERE ARE PLACES WHERE WHALE TEETH ARE FOUND ON THE SEA BOTTOM OR BURRIED ON BEACHES THAT HAVE CHANGED TO A COLOR SIMULAR TO YOUR EXAMPLE. THOSE TAKEN FROM LIVING ANIMALS DURING WHALEING ARE PURE WHITE BUT WOULD GRADUALLY CHANGE COLOR OVER THE YEARS AS A KERIS HANDLE WOULD ESPECIALLY IF USED AND HANDLED A LOT.
ON THE SIDE OF YOUR HILT YOU SEE THE BULLSEYE WHICH LOOKS LIKE THE GROWTH RINGS FOUND IN SPERM WHALE TEETH AND FROM THE ORIENTATION THAT IS WHAT LEADS ME TO THINK IT WAS MADE FROM HALF A TOOTH. THE WEAR ON THE CARVEING AND THE COLOR LEADS ME TO AGREE THE HILT IS VERY LIKELY AN OLD ONE THAT WAS CARRIED AND HANDLED OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. OFTEN WHALE TEETH WERE REFERRED TO AS FISH TEETH IN OLDER MORE SIMPLE TIMES. I HAVE SUCH A HILT BUT UNFORTUNATELY NO WAY TO TAKE PICTURES TO POST AT THIS TIME. I HOPE THIS HELPS AND THAT MY OBSERVATIONS ARE CORRECT. CONGRADULATIONS ON A NICE KERIS. SEARCH THE ARCHIVES FOR POSTS ON IVORY WITH REFRENCES AND FURTHER INFO.

[danny1976]

Hi Vandoo,

Thanks for youre deep going explanation on the hilt.
Personaly i also have the idea its a verry old one , because of the signs of wearing and handling this one.

It,s not realy big , about 8.5 cm but it has a nice weight .

what kind it is , i will just say if some one ask its sea ivory , but for know its standind quite nice on a madura keris at my home

Regards,

Danny

[Marcokeris]

About hit material.... is possible to see some good pic of rhino horn hit???

[asomotif]

I wonder if there are genuine rhino keris hilts.

But here is a nice thread on rhino :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=ivory+rhino

[David]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

About hit material.... is possible to see some good pic of rhino horn hit???

Well, i'd have to say that it might be appropriate for this forum if indeed someone could show us a keris hilt made of rhino, but i have never seen that. Still, even if someone has one to show it might be best to start a new thread on it.

[kulbuntet]

Originally Posted by David

Hi Michel. It would probably be helpful if you could explain exactly what characteristic of this hilt date it as being pre-1825?

Hi David,

At first Happy new year to all, hope it wilo be a good and healty yeah for all and their family and loved ones.

My opinion of this hilt being older than 1825 is because of that there are no indicators of the dutch. No epaulets, dutch knight ord or flying horse. 1825 is the year of start of Jawa war. Lot of soldiers that fought in this war on jawa were Dutch, but since the dutch needed more lot of Madura soldiers helped the dutch in this war. afther this date, madura hilt got dutch indicators.

Regards Michel

[kulbuntet]

Originally Posted by danny1976

The same kind of sun , i didn,t know what it ment

Posible does the sun stands for the sun in the Solo coat of arms. With this would a (royal)maduran show that his familie was affiliated with the Sunan of Solo. See the coat of arms of Solo, it has sun rays in it.

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you Michel for advising us of your reasoning process used in estimation of age of Madura keris hilts.

I believe it is reasonable to assume that following the alignment of Madurese rulers with Dutch interests, symbols associated with the Dutch began to appear in Madurese keris dress and other Madurese ornamentation. A nominal date of 1825 is probably reasonable for the commencement of this practice.

However, although the presence of symbols associated with the Dutch may be able to be used to support an estimate of production time after 1825, the absence of such symbols cannot be used to support a production time prior to 1825.

The relationship between the royal houses of Surakarta and Suminep is well documented, and the speculation that the presence of a symbol on this hilt, that appears to be the sun, could represent such relationship is interesting. My personal opinion is that when we indulge in such speculation it is probably advisable to provide some evidence in support of the idea. The field of keris study is riddled with good ideas, and very often, these good ideas tend to become accepted fact, but "accepted fact" lacking any evidence in support of it.

It is very dangerous to hypothesize in the absence of evidence or logical argument, and most especially in respect of a culture and time that differs from our own.

[Alam Shah]

Originally Posted by David

Well, i'd have to say that it might be appropriate for this forum if indeed someone could show us a keris hilt made of rhino, but i have never seen that. Still, even if someone has one to show it might be best to start a new thread on it.

Hi Marco and David,

This is an example on a Sumatran keris..
http://alamshah.fotopic.net/p56026159.html

* see other pictures here.

[David]

Wow, that's interesting. Sure looks like rhino to me. Why don't you start a thread on that Shahrial. I would love to see if others also have or have seen rhino keris hilts.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Hi Marco and David,

This is an example on a Sumatran keris..
http://alamshah.fotopic.net/p56026159.html

* see other pictures here.

Thanks a lot Alam for the nice photos
Sure a beautiful rhino
Is the weigh of rhino material more llittle than an ivory/horn material of the same misure?
Is the surface of this material more similar to "velvet"?
Is this material less cold than ivory material to touch?
(sorry for my english)

[Rick]

From my experience Rhino can be quite rough if damaged or scuffed .

The horn can be finished quite smooth .

Rhino, to me, feels warmer than Gading .

The best part; Rhino horn gets sticky when wet; this is a good attribute for the hilt of any edged weapon .

Probably makes great pistol grips too .

[Gustav]

A rather bad picture (sorry!) of an early balu mekabun or veiled Durga hilt (in Europe before 1590), made from rhino-horn. This is the Deutschordens-Keris in Wien, I don't have the Krisdisk, but there must be a much more better depiction of it.

There is a chinese source (also Hasrinuksmo/Lumintu 1988: 19)mentioning short swords with rhino-horn hilts, send as a gift from Maharadja of Kahuripan to China (11 century?).

[asomotif]

Hi Marco and David,

This is an example on a Sumatran keris..
http://alamshah.fotopic.net/p56026159.html

* see other pictures here.

Wow, that is an impressive keris.
Thanks for sharing.
I was able to restrain myself from wandering to your other pictures to avoid a serious attack of envy