Opinions on this sword

M ELEY · 30th August 2009, 05:23 AM

Thank you gents for taking the time on this odd piece. Gav, I do appreciate you posting the original pics here and larger than they appeared in the auction at that! Thanks.
I looked all through my references, but with the exception of a very small section on "private purchase swords" in Gilkerson's, not much more to add. Ribbed iron seemed to be the thing for cutlass. I had forgotten about the ole' briquet, with its brass ribbed grip. Variations of this weapon made it to sea as well, particularly the French styles. Neumann didn't have any ribbed hilts that I saw, but did have a nice primitive colonial American hanger near the back of the sword section with a knucklebow exactly like mine- being a blacksmith-made bar bent in2 places like this one. I did find that old Fagan catalog with the sword similar to mine in blade curvature and crudeness (it's grip was nothing more than a built-up tang) with the rounded knuckle guard being just a plain bar pounded in this shape. It was listed as a 'probable' privateer sword made in the Caribbean, possibly by slaves (?) for some sailor of fortune. Of course, no actual data to back up the information. I think I will start researching just to see if there were any slave-made weapons in the Indies in any museums.

Jim McDougall · 30th August 2009, 08:12 AM

Hi Mark,
Ive been plowing through Robson, and Neumann, and noticed the American cutlasses, which are remarkable similar in construction, but no blades like this one....I remain convinced at this point that this upticked point is the work of a Spanish colonial smith who knew, at least in degree, the frontier espada anchas. It remains unclear if perhaps the blade, or blades were fashioned by one smith, and mounted by a blacksmith, or of the entire work was all by the same smith.

In curiosity about how early ribbed iron grips were used, I did find one reference in Neumann (p.185, 372.S) describing one of the earlier forms of double ellipse hilts (favored by British and American forces). It is noted, concerning some of these cutlasses, showing as mentioned very similar construction, that, "...most early examples have a smooth cylinder of lapped iron covering thier grip. Post Revolutionary War versions usually include a corrugated iron grip..."

On p.102, describing American ships which were typically privately owned merchantmen or privateers, and that the cutlasses were "..usually sturdy, but made as inexpensively as possible-more often by the local blacksmith than the sword cutler".

By the latter 18th century, Spain maintained control of many Caribbean ports at least nominally, and there was increasing trade with the colonies, with one of the key locations Havana.

It would seem these crude rectangular stirrup hilts were certainly established in the American colonies just prior to and after the Revolutionary War, and I have often wondered just how involved Spain might have been in certain diplomatic or other contacts in these times. I have heard of a degree of contact, but never really studied it further.

The condition of this sword overall as well as its workmanlike composition does suggest late 18th to early 19th c. and potentially from regions with a great deal of activity between wars, smuggling, trade and colonial decay.
Its a tough one, but more interesting as we go.

Best regards,
Jim

M ELEY · 30th August 2009, 09:39 AM

Thanks for that quote, Jim, concerning privateer swords being just as often blacksmith-made rather than from a sword smith. This piece fits the bill. I will definitely look into the possibile Havanna connection, as I seem to recall a museum set up in an ancient Spanish fort there. In my collection, I have another oddity with corrigated iron grip. It is without question a boarding type cutlass of odd construction similar to the m1803 and m1940 English cutlass. I didn't mention it before because posting pics for me is tantamont to writing a thesis

, but it might add to our theories and pool of knowledge, so I'll try and post those soon.

M ELEY · 31st August 2009, 08:01 PM

Pics of iron hilts...

M ELEY · 31st August 2009, 08:31 PM

Finally got the pics to load. The top piece is a mystery to me. It generally resembles a m1845 British boarding cutlass that has been realtered or it is another one-off copy for private purchase use. Note the corrigated iron grip and odd construction of sword. The blade on this one is straight for almost int's entire length until the end, when it makes an abrupt curve (saw a few blades like it in Neumann. Rev War era??) This earlier blade was set into the fully constructed hilt and brass was poured into the empty space to set the blade. Opinions on this over the years have been varied; earlier period 1810s sword, m1845 knockoff, parts sword, etc. Opinions here?

Second piece is definitely a m1845 naval cutlass cut down and refitted in a Malay scabbard...can you say "pirate"

Pictured here for comparison of iron ribbed hilt of later mid 19th century construction...

Jim McDougall · 31st August 2009, 10:58 PM

Gasp!!!! Wow!!! Mark............shiver me timbers, ya done did it!!
And these are fantastic, it sure looks to me like you've got 'privateers' cornered....and the upward curved blade in the British one. The new one has just gotta be Caribbean.
This grouping is outstanding

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 1st September 2009, 12:44 AM

Thanks, Jim. I knew the pirate in you might like these-

I think you are right that the new one is Caribbean. Very glad to add it to the collection. I know you are busy on the raod, but I was wondering what you thought of the top one? As I said, it resembles the m1845, but in other ways, it looks like some of the earlier ones in Gilkerson. Hard to tell with it's unusual pattern. Anyway, glad to have a handle on the original piece discussed. I mostly posted these to bring home the point of the iron grips, which until someone else disputes it, seems to have originated with the Brit patterns around 1790s.

31st August 2009, 08:01 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,152	Pics... Pics of iron hilts... Attached Images

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

30th August 2009, 05:23 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,152	Thank you gents for taking the time on this odd piece. Gav, I do appreciate you posting the original pics here and larger than they appeared in the auction at that! Thanks. I looked all through my references, but with the exception of a very small section on "private purchase swords" in Gilkerson's, not much more to add. Ribbed iron seemed to be the thing for cutlass. I had forgotten about the ole' briquet, with its brass ribbed grip. Variations of this weapon made it to sea as well, particularly the French styles. Neumann didn't have any ribbed hilts that I saw, but did have a nice primitive colonial American hanger near the back of the sword section with a knucklebow exactly like mine- being a blacksmith-made bar bent in2 places like this one. I did find that old Fagan catalog with the sword similar to mine in blade curvature and crudeness (it's grip was nothing more than a built-up tang) with the rounded knuckle guard being just a plain bar pounded in this shape. It was listed as a 'probable' privateer sword made in the Caribbean, possibly by slaves (?) for some sailor of fortune. Of course, no actual data to back up the information. I think I will start researching just to see if there were any slave-made weapons in the Indies in any museums.

30th August 2009, 08:12 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Hi Mark, Ive been plowing through Robson, and Neumann, and noticed the American cutlasses, which are remarkable similar in construction, but no blades like this one....I remain convinced at this point that this upticked point is the work of a Spanish colonial smith who knew, at least in degree, the frontier espada anchas. It remains unclear if perhaps the blade, or blades were fashioned by one smith, and mounted by a blacksmith, or of the entire work was all by the same smith. In curiosity about how early ribbed iron grips were used, I did find one reference in Neumann (p.185, 372.S) describing one of the earlier forms of double ellipse hilts (favored by British and American forces). It is noted, concerning some of these cutlasses, showing as mentioned very similar construction, that, "...most early examples have a smooth cylinder of lapped iron covering thier grip. Post Revolutionary War versions usually include a corrugated iron grip..." On p.102, describing American ships which were typically privately owned merchantmen or privateers, and that the cutlasses were "..usually sturdy, but made as inexpensively as possible-more often by the local blacksmith than the sword cutler". By the latter 18th century, Spain maintained control of many Caribbean ports at least nominally, and there was increasing trade with the colonies, with one of the key locations Havana. It would seem these crude rectangular stirrup hilts were certainly established in the American colonies just prior to and after the Revolutionary War, and I have often wondered just how involved Spain might have been in certain diplomatic or other contacts in these times. I have heard of a degree of contact, but never really studied it further. The condition of this sword overall as well as its workmanlike composition does suggest late 18th to early 19th c. and potentially from regions with a great deal of activity between wars, smuggling, trade and colonial decay. Its a tough one, but more interesting as we go. Best regards, Jim

30th August 2009, 09:39 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,152	Thanks for that quote, Jim, concerning privateer swords being just as often blacksmith-made rather than from a sword smith. This piece fits the bill. I will definitely look into the possibile Havanna connection, as I seem to recall a museum set up in an ancient Spanish fort there. In my collection, I have another oddity with corrigated iron grip. It is without question a boarding type cutlass of odd construction similar to the m1803 and m1940 English cutlass. I didn't mention it before because posting pics for me is tantamont to writing a thesis , but it might add to our theories and pool of knowledge, so I'll try and post those soon.

31st August 2009, 08:31 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,152	Finally got the pics to load. The top piece is a mystery to me. It generally resembles a m1845 British boarding cutlass that has been realtered or it is another one-off copy for private purchase use. Note the corrigated iron grip and odd construction of sword. The blade on this one is straight for almost int's entire length until the end, when it makes an abrupt curve (saw a few blades like it in Neumann. Rev War era??) This earlier blade was set into the fully constructed hilt and brass was poured into the empty space to set the blade. Opinions on this over the years have been varied; earlier period 1810s sword, m1845 knockoff, parts sword, etc. Opinions here? Second piece is definitely a m1845 naval cutlass cut down and refitted in a Malay scabbard...can you say "pirate" Pictured here for comparison of iron ribbed hilt of later mid 19th century construction...

31st August 2009, 10:58 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,278	Gasp!!!! Wow!!! Mark............shiver me timbers, ya done did it!! And these are fantastic, it sure looks to me like you've got 'privateers' cornered....and the upward curved blade in the British one. The new one has just gotta be Caribbean. This grouping is outstanding All the best, Jim

1st September 2009, 12:44 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,152	Thanks, Jim. I knew the pirate in you might like these- I think you are right that the new one is Caribbean. Very glad to add it to the collection. I know you are busy on the raod, but I was wondering what you thought of the top one? As I said, it resembles the m1845, but in other ways, it looks like some of the earlier ones in Gilkerson. Hard to tell with it's unusual pattern. Anyway, glad to have a handle on the original piece discussed. I mostly posted these to bring home the point of the iron grips, which until someone else disputes it, seems to have originated with the Brit patterns around 1790s.