2 Pata

Emanuel · 26th July 2009, 08:21 PM

These two pata just finished on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=320399505827
http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=220456663329

Different sellers, one from India, one from UK. Practically identical pata, same brass gauntlet, almost identical oxydation and patina. What are the odds?

They also do not look anything like examples in Elgood or Stone. Tourist/replica market?

Emanuel

Norman McCormick · 26th July 2009, 08:56 PM

Hi Emmanuel,
Over the past wee while the U.K. seller does indeed appear to have 'struck a rich seam' positively bursting with 'Indo-Persian artefacts'!
My Regards,
Norman.

ariel · 26th July 2009, 09:28 PM

As genuine as the $3 bill.
The Indian seller does not discuss age or originality at all.
The British one say that it rather vintage than antique.
Read between the lines.

Jim McDougall · 26th July 2009, 10:00 PM

Arent there some kind of dances or performances that use these? I cant think of the term, but these seem like theatrical props.

Hotspur · 26th July 2009, 10:27 PM

The WPI/Forgeng index of artifacts displays a good number of examples.

http://users.wpi.edu/~jforgeng/Colle...sortstyle=pata

What I have read of them indicates age might be a real determinination of intended use. However, the use in ceremony also seems to go back a few centuries. My own feelings are that actual weapon types would, or should, show remaining (or complete) signs of textile padding.

I would put the example above in the completely tourista classification but I don't have research to share regarding 19th/20th/21st century ethnic dancing or presentations. I do know I watch one and wonder about its viability as meant as a using weapon but some aspects of that one does show remanants of padding and a good bit of what looks to me to be honest use/handling.

Cheers

Hotspur; some dealers price them somehwere in the stratosphere

KuKulzA28 · 26th July 2009, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Arent there some kind of dances or performances that use these? I cant think of the term, but these seem like theatrical props.

I know that the Maratha's Mardani Khel is either a martial dance or fighting art. There's a certain Shambhuraje Maratha War Art website but it is in poor english and seems to have Malware.

On their website they have videos where they perform performance-based martial moves with pata, sticks, swords, etc.

Emanuel · 27th July 2009, 02:16 PM

The gauntlet construction looks flimsy, that was my main consideration for thinking tourist pieces. Also my impression was that old pieces were all essentially unique, being hand crafted. Deisgned for cavalry, I'd expect pata to be custom-made, not mass produced to the same design.

tribalarms · 3rd August 2009, 04:09 PM

I have recently seen a third of the same design, but without the blade.

fernando · 3rd August 2009, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

As genuine as the $3 bill ...

.

katana · 8th August 2009, 02:56 AM

Nicely spotted Emanuel

.....the plot thickens....the UK seller cancelled the bids on the 26th July and retracted the auction .....the same day, the Indian seller STARTED his auction ........ coincidence

Emanuel · 8th August 2009, 03:14 AM

I've seen another one of these for sale David. The two pieces above are different, the oxidation patterns are not quite identical, but I feel they come from the same workshop. Sheet metal stamped and bent to shape, brass I guess. Who knows about the blade

katana · 8th August 2009, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

I've seen another one of these for sale David. The two pieces above are different, the oxidation patterns are not quite identical, but I feel they come from the same workshop. Sheet metal stamped and bent to shape, brass I guess. Who knows about the blade

Hi Emanuel,
I agree with your comments .....but if 'modern' made antiques are being passed on by dealers ....you would not want to 'flood' the market ..(although 2, almost identical items is not really 'flooding' ) but Pata's are not common.
So from the buyer's point of view, he now has a choice of two ....which potentionally could lessen the sale price. Two almost identical specimens, sold at the same time, also suggests 1. these are not unusual 2. likely produced in greater numbers 3. Possibly made recently for sale to collectors / tourists.

To me, this highlights the increasing numbers of 'fake' antique weapons, manufactured in Indian workshops being sold by dealers. Most of us think of China ....but with India's growing economy, the same is happening there.

There is an increasing 'concern' that some dealers are buying directly from these workshops and fraudulently selling them as genuine.
As a footnote, there is also a greater number of composite pieces, put together from old component parts coming from India.

With a 'growing' interest in ethnic weapons.....the market is increasing and the 'availability' of 'fakes' will multiply.

Bearing in mind, the recent interest in Australasian and Polynesian clubs and the high prices they now command. An 'influx' of 'fakes' is very likely.

All the best
David

Emanuel · 8th August 2009, 02:25 PM

You misunderstood David, by workshop I meant recent/modern/repro shop, not an old armoury. We are in complete agreement

. You've drawn out in detail my point.
We see the same thing with the new "damascus" khanjars and kattars with mechanical rain-drop pattern. Made cheaply, sold cheaply at first, but subsequently advertized as antique.

All in all, it's good to have resources like this forum where we can consult with fellow colelctors and differentiate fakes from genuine.

Take care,
Emanuel

26th July 2009, 08:21 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	2 Pata These two pata just finished on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=320399505827 http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=220456663329 Different sellers, one from India, one from UK. Practically identical pata, same brass gauntlet, almost identical oxydation and patina. What are the odds? They also do not look anything like examples in Elgood or Stone. Tourist/replica market? Emanuel Attached Images

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26th July 2009, 08:56 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi Emmanuel, Over the past wee while the U.K. seller does indeed appear to have 'struck a rich seam' positively bursting with 'Indo-Persian artefacts'! My Regards, Norman.

26th July 2009, 09:28 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As genuine as the $3 bill. The Indian seller does not discuss age or originality at all. The British one say that it rather vintage than antique. Read between the lines.

26th July 2009, 10:00 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	Arent there some kind of dances or performances that use these? I cant think of the term, but these seem like theatrical props.

26th July 2009, 10:27 PM	#5
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	The WPI/Forgeng index of artifacts displays a good number of examples. http://users.wpi.edu/~jforgeng/Colle...sortstyle=pata What I have read of them indicates age might be a real determinination of intended use. However, the use in ceremony also seems to go back a few centuries. My own feelings are that actual weapon types would, or should, show remaining (or complete) signs of textile padding. I would put the example above in the completely tourista classification but I don't have research to share regarding 19th/20th/21st century ethnic dancing or presentations. I do know I watch one and wonder about its viability as meant as a using weapon but some aspects of that one does show remanants of padding and a good bit of what looks to me to be honest use/handling. Cheers Hotspur; some dealers price them somehwere in the stratosphere

27th July 2009, 02:16 PM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	The gauntlet construction looks flimsy, that was my main consideration for thinking tourist pieces. Also my impression was that old pieces were all essentially unique, being hand crafted. Deisgned for cavalry, I'd expect pata to be custom-made, not mass produced to the same design.

3rd August 2009, 04:09 PM	#8
tribalarms Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 26	I have recently seen a third of the same design, but without the blade.

8th August 2009, 02:56 AM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Nicely spotted Emanuel .....the plot thickens....the UK seller cancelled the bids on the 26th July and retracted the auction .....the same day, the Indian seller STARTED his auction ........ coincidence

8th August 2009, 03:14 AM	#11
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I've seen another one of these for sale David. The two pieces above are different, the oxidation patterns are not quite identical, but I feel they come from the same workshop. Sheet metal stamped and bent to shape, brass I guess. Who knows about the blade

8th August 2009, 02:25 PM	#13
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	You misunderstood David, by workshop I meant recent/modern/repro shop, not an old armoury. We are in complete agreement . You've drawn out in detail my point. We see the same thing with the new "damascus" khanjars and kattars with mechanical rain-drop pattern. Made cheaply, sold cheaply at first, but subsequently advertized as antique. All in all, it's good to have resources like this forum where we can consult with fellow colelctors and differentiate fakes from genuine. Take care, Emanuel