Armor breastplate for coments

katana · 18th July 2009, 06:26 PM

Hi Fernando,
no luck on the ethnographic forum

. Found a picture of a Burmese Trident, and very nice it is too. Obviously the prong cross section is not round but is dated 18th C.

The Sai,
the 3 pronged dagger/defensive weapon is almost a hand held trident ....interestingly it is suggested it originated in Indonesia...or thereabouts. The trident as a spearhead or hand held 'implement' makes perfect sense for the island communities where fishing is so important. Afterall medievel farm implements were mounted on shafts and used in battle.

".........The sai is known to have been used in other parts of Asia before its arrival on Okinawa, such as India, China, Indonesia, Siam and Malaysia. Early evidence suggests Indonesia or the neighbouring area as the sai's point of origin. In Malay the sai is known as a tekpi or Indonesia language as chabang (also spelled cabang or tjabang, meaning branch) and is thought to derive from the Indian trishula. The chabang quickly spread through the rest of Indo-China and may have reached Okinawa from one or more of these places simultaneously........."

Regards David

fernando · 18th July 2009, 06:44 PM

Hi David,
Beautiful piece, this Sai.
My tri-thanks for your dedication to this perforated cuirass cause

.
By the way, i have recently unhanged this item from the wall, to rearrange some weapons display, and noticed that the riddling holes only perforated the first layer of steel, having not gone through ... for what it matters.
Much of a coincidence if they were made by the prongs of a weapon

.
... More likely a mechanical operation, for the hanging of whatever ?

. Not much logic in my reasoning, is there?

.
Case not closed, anyway.
May i show you the new rearrangement?
Have a sunny Sunday, my friend

.
Fernando

.

katana · 18th July 2009, 07:06 PM

Dear Fernando,
your display is a bit 'cluttered'......GET RID OF THE FURNITURE

Could the second 'layer' (of the breastplate) be a later addition ? repair ?

Sunny Sunday ... In England

All the best
David

fernando · 18th July 2009, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

... your display is a bit 'cluttered'......GET RID OF THE FURNITURE ...

I am working on my wife for the due agreement

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Could the second 'layer' (of the breastplate) be a later addition ? repair ?

Oh no, i don't think so ... at all. Just the way to make these things on a reinforced basis, i would say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Sunny Sunday ... In England

I knew you would react

. I could send you some from here; but then, your skin would go pinky, like the Brits we see over here during summer

.
... just kidding

.

Fernando

William V. · 18th July 2009, 11:44 PM

Hello there,

normally I'm not into this kind of thing but the thread was too interesting for just rummaging through it

The trident-thesis is quite fascinating, but I'm not sure if these marks could have been made by any form of weapon. Don't want to spoil the show, but I doubt that any hand-held weapon could do that kind of damage...

a) Imagine the setting: A spanish soldier is in close-quarters with a native let's say Indian fighter who is using his trident to stab at the soldier. He must use an awful lot of power and speed to procure this kind of punctures. Because normally the metal would either bend inwards (three spikes transferring its energy on a broad area) or the trident would just scrape the metal (which should leave visible scratches). The last case might not happen if the Indian is stabbing at an angle close to 90 degrees in regard to the breastplate. But referring to the sketches this seems unprobable.

b) The form of the punctures also speaks against a battle damage. There are two sets with 3 marks each, which are nearly paralell.... the Indian must have had good eyes to execute the second stab just to get this design

And now comes the really hard part:

I must admit I have no other explanation

All the best

William

P.S. Perhaps some kind of marking that the piece was sorted out of the regular armoury equipment. Similar to the X used by the english
War Departement to mark gund which are to be sold to civilian distributors...

18th July 2009, 06:26 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Fernando, no luck on the ethnographic forum . Found a picture of a Burmese Trident, and very nice it is too. Obviously the prong cross section is not round but is dated 18th C. The Sai, the 3 pronged dagger/defensive weapon is almost a hand held trident ....interestingly it is suggested it originated in Indonesia...or thereabouts. The trident as a spearhead or hand held 'implement' makes perfect sense for the island communities where fishing is so important. Afterall medievel farm implements were mounted on shafts and used in battle. ".........The sai is known to have been used in other parts of Asia before its arrival on Okinawa, such as India, China, Indonesia, Siam and Malaysia. Early evidence suggests Indonesia or the neighbouring area as the sai's point of origin. In Malay the sai is known as a tekpi or Indonesia language as chabang (also spelled cabang or tjabang, meaning branch) and is thought to derive from the Indian trishula. The chabang quickly spread through the rest of Indo-China and may have reached Okinawa from one or more of these places simultaneously........." Regards David Attached Images

18th July 2009, 06:44 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi David, Beautiful piece, this Sai. My tri-thanks for your dedication to this perforated cuirass cause . By the way, i have recently unhanged this item from the wall, to rearrange some weapons display, and noticed that the riddling holes only perforated the first layer of steel, having not gone through ... for what it matters. Much of a coincidence if they were made by the prongs of a weapon . ... More likely a mechanical operation, for the hanging of whatever ? . Not much logic in my reasoning, is there? . Case not closed, anyway. May i show you the new rearrangement? Have a sunny Sunday, my friend . Fernando . Attached Images

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18th July 2009, 07:06 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Dear Fernando, your display is a bit 'cluttered'......GET RID OF THE FURNITURE Could the second 'layer' (of the breastplate) be a later addition ? repair ? Sunny Sunday ... In England All the best David

18th July 2009, 11:44 PM	#5
William V. Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 33	Hello there, normally I'm not into this kind of thing but the thread was too interesting for just rummaging through it The trident-thesis is quite fascinating, but I'm not sure if these marks could have been made by any form of weapon. Don't want to spoil the show, but I doubt that any hand-held weapon could do that kind of damage... a) Imagine the setting: A spanish soldier is in close-quarters with a native let's say Indian fighter who is using his trident to stab at the soldier. He must use an awful lot of power and speed to procure this kind of punctures. Because normally the metal would either bend inwards (three spikes transferring its energy on a broad area) or the trident would just scrape the metal (which should leave visible scratches). The last case might not happen if the Indian is stabbing at an angle close to 90 degrees in regard to the breastplate. But referring to the sketches this seems unprobable. b) The form of the punctures also speaks against a battle damage. There are two sets with 3 marks each, which are nearly paralell.... the Indian must have had good eyes to execute the second stab just to get this design And now comes the really hard part: I must admit I have no other explanation All the best William P.S. Perhaps some kind of marking that the piece was sorted out of the regular armoury equipment. Similar to the X used by the english War Departement to mark gund which are to be sold to civilian distributors...