Origin of the Jawa Demam hilt form

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm sorry David, but I cannot pursue this discussion.

I know too little about the subject to make any worthwhile remarks or to formulate any even vaguely supportable theories.

But I will say this:-

I can see more than just two sources for keris hilt origin. There are the giants, the ogres, the spirits, the demons, the deities, the wayang characters, and perhaps even the ancestors. Then there are the purely vegetable forms and purely animal and bird forms. There are also the rarest of the rare:- the naturally occurring forms that are adapted for use as keris hilts. There are many sources for keris hilt motifs.

But how, when, where and why I simply cannot theorise on.

[A. G. Maisey]

Here are a few of my hilts of this type, mixed in with others---sorry.

[jonng]

I will put up some of my hilts for further discussions later when I have the time to photograpgh them. But I need to point this out. I think the carvers are quite observant and they do not carve without taking the natural body posture into considerations. To me the Minang and Palembang (Sumatra), and Malaysian "Jawa Demam" forms are quite similar. They have the right elbow over the right knee and no matter what the posture is, I think it is extremely awkward to be able to get the right forearm across the stomach!

Yes Sajen I agree the left leg of hilts from the north east coast/ Cirebon? or Raksasa form is more or less straight. These tend to have the right elbow just touching or just above the right knee and the toes pointing downwards which would suggest sitting on the edge of something high to me.

I have seen only a few suggesting the left knee touching the ground and these are I believe Sumatran in origin. Will try to find them.

[jonng]

here's some

[jonng]

is the motif near the base (where I think the ankles are) the anklets? it's just a simple horizontal line on the Big Minang? "jawa Demam.

[jonng]

more

[jonng]

more for comparison

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I'm sorry David, but I cannot pursue this discussion.

I know too little about the subject to make any worthwhile remarks or to formulate any even vaguely supportable theories.

But I will say this:-

I can see more than just two sources for keris hilt origin. There are the giants, the ogres, the spirits, the demons, the deities, the wayang characters, and perhaps even the ancestors. Then there are the purely vegetable forms and purely animal and bird forms. There are also the rarest of the rare:- the naturally occurring forms that are adapted for use as keris hilts. There are many sources for keris hilt motifs.

But how, when, where and why I simply cannot theorise on.

I see your points Alan and of course i agree that there are more than 2 sources for hilt origins. I was merely pointing out that it seems to me that in this discussionnwe are trying to find a single origin for at least 2 (probably more) distinctly different forms. In other words, i am not convinced that the hilt form that we have come to know as "Jawa Demam" is an abstracted evolution of the hilt form that we have come to recognize as "raksasa".
And Jonathan, i am not sure you understood me fully. Whether the arm is intended to cross the stomach or the chest was not meant to be an arguing point. You questioned why this hilt was called the Feverish Javanese, calling it a derogatory term. I was merely relaying one explanation for that, that perhaps the posture was misinterpreted at some point and the story spread. I am not convinced that the original intent of the form was to portray a sick person, but this is the name in common usage. However, i am not really hopeful that we will ever be able to uncover the original intent or name if there is one. The questions are good but the answers are impossibly elusive and unfortunately much has been lost to time.
So can anyone accurately determine when the Jawa Demam hilt first appeared? Are there any hilts with established provenance? Does the name Java Demam appear in any documentation before Gardner? Was Gardner mislead or perhaps just confused?