A question about boarding pikes

aiontay · 26th April 2009, 10:12 PM

While ammunition certainly was scarce in New Mexico during the Spanish colonial era, I'm not sure that is the only reason lances were favored. I remember watching an episode of "Gangland" on the History Channel recently where they described an incident where several members of a gang attacked a party held by a rival gang with automatic rifles and pistols. Even though they were shooting (on foot) into a crowd of people, they completely missed the people they were trying to kill. The only person killed was the pregnant wife of one of the rival gang, and she was killed by a stray bullet.

Now imagine trying to shoot accurately from a galloping horse at another person on a galloping horse while riding across broken terrain with a muzzle loading carbine or pistol, or a single action cap and ball revolver for that matter. I think your accuracy would suffer quite a bit. For that matter, during the Revoluntionary War there were several occasssions, for example the capture by the Americans of a British redoubt at Yorktown, where commander explicitly ordered their men to rely solely on bayonets, ot loaded guns. Even in situations where men were on foot in massed formations, as opposed to the loose, small groups on horseback common on Spanish frontier, "spears" were the prefered weapon in some situations because they were more reliable.

Also, at least in New Mexico there were the cibolaros (sp?), the Hsipanic buffalo hunters who went on extended buffalo hunts using bows and arrows and lances. Maybe the use of bows and lances was due to lack of ammunition, but it may have been because of the ineffectiveness of gun fire on horseback. As Joseph Jablow notes in his book "The Cheyenne in Plains Indian Trade Relations" several tribes banned the use of guns in buffalo hunts due to misfires and stray bullets. Now I realize hunts and battles are not the same, but I would point out that Plains battle tactics, like Mongol tactics, derived in part from group hunting tactics. I suspect that many of these ideas were adopted by the Spanish settlers.

Gonzalo G · 27th April 2009, 06:47 AM

Thank you very much, Jim. As ever, you are very indulgent and motivating with the modest participations of other forumites. I feel that the spear also have many advantages over the saber, and when you spent your only shooth from a gun difficult to reload during a cavalry charge, it is the better option. Mainly if your enemy does not have guns, or have them in small quantities.

Aiontay, before the use of the modern cartridge, the one shot cavalry carabines or similar weapons were not accurate. I agree with you about the use of hunting practices in the battlefield. The sniper and its camouflage is one of this derivations.

M ELEY · 30th September 2009, 05:58 AM

Finally...
Not the greatest pics, but...
My question is, is this a colonial Spanish lance, a Rev War spear or a small boarding pike sans langets (I'm not too concerned with this, as many of the American pikes didn't have side straps). The head is classic diamond shaped, the wood wormy ash (used for lances and pikes) shaved down to bare wood, the neck around this piece has the traditional spiraling pattern and the small "X's" decorations associated with colonial Span pieces. Old museum numbers in white paint. The butt of the shaft is flat, no metal cap. Head is 9", total with shaft 65". I'm told that boarding pike hafts were either painted black/brown or "shaved" down to bare wood as this piece is.

M ELEY · 30th September 2009, 06:34 AM

Try again...

M ELEY · 1st October 2009, 05:35 AM

Any takers?

Gonzalo G · 1st October 2009, 06:22 AM

You are very young!
Not spanish colonial, I think, but it does seems a boarding spear. Well, it COULD be spanish navy, but not specifically colonial. There are many colonial spears and lances, made in Spain or in America and used by the colonial army and auxiliaries, but they are more longer, heavy and with the shafts more thick. Sorry if I am not more useful. There are others in the forum with more knowledge about this kind of weapons.
Regards

Gonzalo

M ELEY · 1st October 2009, 09:44 AM

Gonzalo, you are my new favorite forumite-

Actually, I just celebrated my 42nd birthday, so not so young as I used to be.

Thank you so much for responding to this grey area of collecting. I found several listings of Spanish spear, pike and lance heads, but none with the shaft (which would have helped narrow mine down). Likewise, even these seem to contradict their classifications. I'm hoping to find out if the wormy ash wood was used strictly for pikes and not on spears/lances, as mine is complete with the tiny bore holes. When I purchased this piece, I was told it was a British boarding pike, but the X designs made me think of those markings I've seen on Span lance heads and on my Brazilian espada/cutlass.

Here is one similar listed as a pike head (6 down)
http://www.autrynationalcenter.org/a...h_colonial.php

Here is a spear head, similar, but not as diamond-shaped as mine
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedi...00-lance-spear

30th September 2009, 05:58 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,219	Finally... Not the greatest pics, but... My question is, is this a colonial Spanish lance, a Rev War spear or a small boarding pike sans langets (I'm not too concerned with this, as many of the American pikes didn't have side straps). The head is classic diamond shaped, the wood wormy ash (used for lances and pikes) shaved down to bare wood, the neck around this piece has the traditional spiraling pattern and the small "X's" decorations associated with colonial Span pieces. Old museum numbers in white paint. The butt of the shaft is flat, no metal cap. Head is 9", total with shaft 65". I'm told that boarding pike hafts were either painted black/brown or "shaved" down to bare wood as this piece is. Attached Images Last edited by M ELEY; 1st October 2009 at 05:33 AM.

30th September 2009, 06:34 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,219	Try again... Attached Images

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26th April 2009, 10:12 PM	#1
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	While ammunition certainly was scarce in New Mexico during the Spanish colonial era, I'm not sure that is the only reason lances were favored. I remember watching an episode of "Gangland" on the History Channel recently where they described an incident where several members of a gang attacked a party held by a rival gang with automatic rifles and pistols. Even though they were shooting (on foot) into a crowd of people, they completely missed the people they were trying to kill. The only person killed was the pregnant wife of one of the rival gang, and she was killed by a stray bullet. Now imagine trying to shoot accurately from a galloping horse at another person on a galloping horse while riding across broken terrain with a muzzle loading carbine or pistol, or a single action cap and ball revolver for that matter. I think your accuracy would suffer quite a bit. For that matter, during the Revoluntionary War there were several occasssions, for example the capture by the Americans of a British redoubt at Yorktown, where commander explicitly ordered their men to rely solely on bayonets, ot loaded guns. Even in situations where men were on foot in massed formations, as opposed to the loose, small groups on horseback common on Spanish frontier, "spears" were the prefered weapon in some situations because they were more reliable. Also, at least in New Mexico there were the cibolaros (sp?), the Hsipanic buffalo hunters who went on extended buffalo hunts using bows and arrows and lances. Maybe the use of bows and lances was due to lack of ammunition, but it may have been because of the ineffectiveness of gun fire on horseback. As Joseph Jablow notes in his book "The Cheyenne in Plains Indian Trade Relations" several tribes banned the use of guns in buffalo hunts due to misfires and stray bullets. Now I realize hunts and battles are not the same, but I would point out that Plains battle tactics, like Mongol tactics, derived in part from group hunting tactics. I suspect that many of these ideas were adopted by the Spanish settlers.

27th April 2009, 06:47 AM	#2
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Thank you very much, Jim. As ever, you are very indulgent and motivating with the modest participations of other forumites. I feel that the spear also have many advantages over the saber, and when you spent your only shooth from a gun difficult to reload during a cavalry charge, it is the better option. Mainly if your enemy does not have guns, or have them in small quantities. Aiontay, before the use of the modern cartridge, the one shot cavalry carabines or similar weapons were not accurate. I agree with you about the use of hunting practices in the battlefield. The sniper and its camouflage is one of this derivations.

1st October 2009, 05:35 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,219	Any takers?

1st October 2009, 06:22 AM	#6
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	You are very young! Not spanish colonial, I think, but it does seems a boarding spear. Well, it COULD be spanish navy, but not specifically colonial. There are many colonial spears and lances, made in Spain or in America and used by the colonial army and auxiliaries, but they are more longer, heavy and with the shafts more thick. Sorry if I am not more useful. There are others in the forum with more knowledge about this kind of weapons. Regards Gonzalo

1st October 2009, 09:44 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,219	Gonzalo, you are my new favorite forumite- Actually, I just celebrated my 42nd birthday, so not so young as I used to be. Thank you so much for responding to this grey area of collecting. I found several listings of Spanish spear, pike and lance heads, but none with the shaft (which would have helped narrow mine down). Likewise, even these seem to contradict their classifications. I'm hoping to find out if the wormy ash wood was used strictly for pikes and not on spears/lances, as mine is complete with the tiny bore holes. When I purchased this piece, I was told it was a British boarding pike, but the X designs made me think of those markings I've seen on Span lance heads and on my Brazilian espada/cutlass. Here is one similar listed as a pike head (6 down) http://www.autrynationalcenter.org/a...h_colonial.php Here is a spear head, similar, but not as diamond-shaped as mine http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedi...00-lance-spear