The Mystery of El Cid's Swords Tizona and Colada

[migueldiaz]

The excerpts below from Spanish arms and armour, being a historical and descriptive account of the Royal Armoury of Madrid (1907) will be my humble contribution to this very interesting topic!

What surprised me in browsing the said book is the dearth of info on the colada and the tizona. Perhaps somebody can tell us the 'inside story' there?

By the way, thanks to Gonzalo for referring me to the LINK from where the book (45 mb) can be downloaded.

What would I do without you guys?!

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Lorenz,
Its great to have you come in on this with us, and we have agreed, this does seem to be developing into just the intriguing discussion I hoped it would be. I'm glad you added the Calvert reference, as this has stood for some time as one of the few references to Spanish arms in English. Your mention of the dearth of reference to Tizona and Colada is something I also have thought extremely unusual in looking through this work, which is intended to focus on the importance of this collection and Spanish arms in general.

While I could not think of any specific reason for the brief mention of these two most important weapons, it does seem that Mr. Calvert was amidst considerable sensitivity as he was a guest in this cataloguing and description. In the assistance provided to him by the Conde de Valencia de San Juan, some of the material discussed reflect the degree of concern toward the sword once thought to be Colada, now considered the Lobera of Ferdinand III.
The sword next to it was noted as having been attributed to Roland erroneously, but now 'possibly' one of Ferdinands swords (G22).
Tizona was mentioned, but at this point without going into greater detail, only suggesting the sword there was quite likely the true Tizona.
I think that with weapons of this stature, Mr. Calvert wisely limited his review of them to the levels of information shared by the Conde, and avoided further speculation.

Moving on, I think what is most interesting here are the entries on the G21 sword formerly thought to be Colada, and now believed to be the 'Lobera' of King Ferdinand III (King of Castile and Leon, reuniting them in 1231).
It is noted by Calvert on p.32 (...how the name Lobera came to be applied to a sword is unknown).
What is interesting to me is why the question about the Lobera name for a sword, and speculation about the name of a person reflected in memoirs . It seems worthy of note here that in this reference, the sword is referred to as a "lobera sword" and of its great virtue. Somehow there is key focus on the naming of this sword, yet the names of Tizona and Colada are not really reviewed here or it appears in any depth in other references I have seen.

One thing I would offer here for consideration, is another reference in the Calvert text (also p.32) referring to the virtue of ones 'lobera' sword, in a seemingly more general reference.

In looking into what I could find for translation of 'lobera' it seems that the term in variation refers to a wolf pack or wolves lair. While admittedly reaching at this point, I find it interesting that roughly in this period, the concept of using a wolf as a marking guaranteeing the quality of a blade was about to become a known practice. This would be in the established arms making location from earlier Roman Noricum that became Passau. In trying to locate a place name in Spain that would have the name Lobera, it seems that in Zaragoza there is a municipality named Lobera de Onsella.

In later period the famed swordsmith Julian del Rey is said to have used the wolf marking, working in both Toledo and Zaragoza. While it is unclear whether the image used is actually a wolf, or possibly a lion, it has been generally held that it was a wolf (actually referred to as a perillo =dog).
Clearly not connected directly to this case being discussed, it seems worthy of note that there could be a remote connection to wolf marking deriving from this earlier possibility. Perhaps the term 'lobera' was a colloquial metaphor for a sword or type of sword, much in the way the 'fox' became used by Shakespeares time to describe a sword.


In this region of NE Spain, this had been colonized by the Romans, later the Islamic Taifa (Kingdom) of Saraqustah (Zaragoza) and c.1035 AD under Frankish fuedal fiefs.



This is my admittedly limited understanding of the complexity of Spanish history, but the point I am hoping to make is that the name 'Lobera' for this sword, in my opinion is once again, a reference to where the sword was likely made. It would seem that this could be a place name, as in the one I found (I'm sure there are others) in which Zaragosa is of course known for sword making. It was well known as one of the campaign regions for Charlemagne (which brings up once again his paladin, Roland ) which makes it tempting to consider how the attribution for the G22 sword emerged.

It would seem that in these times, a sword made in Zaragoza, with the earlier influences of not only the Frankish swords but Islamic makers, would be of the virtues (quality) expressly noted. How the lobera term becomes applied is at this point completely unclear, and again, what I have compiled is purely speculation. I have placed it here for the consideration and discussion of those of you who are without a doubt more advanced in Spanish history than I am, and very much look forward to your thoughts and observatiobs.

All best regards,
Jim

[katana]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...........
One thing I would offer here for consideration, is another reference in the Calvert text (also p.32) referring to the virtue of ones 'lobera' sword, in a seemingly more general reference.

In looking into what I could find for translation of 'lobera' it seems that the term in variation refers to a wolf pack or wolves lair. While admittedly reaching at this point, I find it interesting that roughly in this period, the concept of using a wolf as a marking guaranteeing the quality of a blade was about to become a known practice. This would be in the established arms making location from earlier Roman Noricum that became Passau. In trying to locate a place name in Spain that would have the name Lobera, it seems that in Zaragoza there is a municipality named Lobera de Onsella.

In later period the famed swordsmith Julian del Rey is said to have used the wolf marking, working in both Toledo and Zaragoza. While it is unclear whether the image used is actually a wolf, or possibly a lion, it has been generally held that it was a wolf (actually referred to as a perillo =dog).
Clearly not connected directly to this case being discussed, it seems worthy of note that there could be a remote connection to wolf marking deriving from this earlier possibility. Perhaps the term 'lobera' was a colloquial metaphor for a sword or type of sword, much in the way the 'fox' became used by Shakespeares time to describe a sword........

Jim

Mr Holmes would be proud

Best Regards David

[Gonzalo G]

Well, if Calvert´s descriptions are as erroneous or ambiguos as the mentioned in many pages, we have serious problems. Calvert speaks of a coat of mail composed of "scales" (pag. 19), and his lack of knowledge of castillian does not permit him understand many words from the poems related to El Cid, like "lóriga", which designates in fact a scale armour, and he translates as "riven mail", meaning rivetted mail and "huesos", which means "bones", as leggins (pag. 23),.

Also, Jim, "Lobera" in spanish means two things. The place, den, cave or hole where the little wolves born and are raised, and if referred to a sword, it could mean a sword to kill wolves. It does not necessarily designates real wolves, as the word could be used in a poetic sense. Lobera is the equivalent of the italian word "lupara", which designates a shotgun to kill wolves, a shepherd´s shotgun. Also, there is a mention of this sword as belonged previously to a chevalier who´s last name is Lobera, and this is also a very plausible and acceptable explanation of the name given to the sword.

The Colada is actually mounted in a 15-16th Century style and the blade looks of a newer model than the Tizona, IMHO.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks so much David!!! Thinkin' outside the box again...right or wrong, its fun to evaluate data.

Thank you Gonzalo, for explaining the more concise definition of lobera. Naturally as a non Spanish speaker, despite variations and semantics, I sort of expected that there might be more to the term's actual meaning. Still, in romanticized allusion, who knows where the intended use of such a term might have gone on those times. Perhaps the place where the wolf swords were made (born) was a 'lair'? Doesn't really sound too much more bizarre than the allegories I read through concerning the names applied to the swords of the chilvalric heroes, including flaming swords, etc.


Thanks again for your observations on my notes, as always I appreciate your knowledgable input as I offer these speculations.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Well, if Calvert´s descriptions are as erroneous or ambiguos as the mentioned in many pages, we have serious problems. Calvert speaks of a coat of mail composed of "scales" (pag. 19), and his lack of knowledge of castillian does not permit him understand many words from the poems related to El Cid, like "lóriga", which designates in fact a scale armour, and he translates as "riven mail", meaning rivetted mail and "huesos", which means "bones", as leggins (pag. 23),.
Gonzalo

I only wanted to make an explanatory statement. I just read in a document about antique armour, that in the Victorian Era in England, the term ´maille´ has another meaning that in the present time. It designated also any articulated type or armour made from scales or from llamelae, and of course, chain mail and ring mail. So, my comment about the supposed confusion in Calvert´s book about the castillian word ´loriga´, is not really a confusion, but the proper use of the word in that time and place.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Gonzalo G]

I must apologize for my delayed and out of phase responses, but I have no internet connection, so I have to wait until I can connect from some place. There is an article related with the methodology used to dating the Tizona in the Complutense University, published by Gladius, Vol. XXI, 2001 (‘Modelo para la Datación de Hierros y Aceros Antiguos Aplicado a Tizona’ by José Manuel Jiménez, Daniel Arias, Esther Bravo, Juan Antonio Martínez y Antonio J. Criado), in which very briefly (hardly 18 lines), the method is described (and not really explained, as maybe it was not the intention of this article to reach much deep in this technicalties) on the grounds that the steels changes their structure from the moment they are forged, through the passing of time, due a diffusing process which produces an structural ageing at normal environmental temperature. This process results in a more relaxed structure from the strains created during the original forge, with more perfect crystalline structure, and therefore more stable. Some aspects of this change are enumerated, as the segregation of the excess of carbon from the ferrite, the production of cementite prismatic crystals in the perlite, the stress relieving produced by the staggering and growing of crystals, and, in the martensite, by the segregation and growing of spheroidized iron carbides with a morphology of clusters. A mathematic model (Porter y Easterling, 1981) is invoked as been used to calculate the date of production of the blade, and in the conclusions of this article, this date is established as 950 years ago. Taking on account that this article was published in 2001, we can deduct the date of production in the year 1051 AD.

I can’t make a scientific analysis of this article, since I am not a metallurgist. But I feel it places more questions than answers. Maybe one of the metallurgists in this forum would be so kind to help us in this area. I can help with translations from this article, though I also have some doubts about my proper use of metallurgical terms in english.

The whole article has only 12 pages, and it seems more as a succinct abstract of a bigger publication, and really it does not explains in detail the scientific bases in which those methods and mathematic models are based. Apart from the fact that the results of this study seems to be unconfirmed by another metallurgical laboratories. There are also two points of interests in this article. First, the fact that in the Fig. 1, there is a description of the blade as ‘andalusi’, jineta or slashing, suitable for cavalry fighting. The statements included in this description are not based in any ground. Why this sword is specifically andalusian, and not from another place of production? Are ‘jineta’ (or gineta) and ‘slashing’ equivalent concepts? It seems that the ‘or’ is superfluos and confusing. Why would be this type of blade would be called specifically ‘jineta’? Which would be the distinctive features of a jineta blade? Would it not be just a common period blade from medieval Europe? I must point that this blade have a central fuller in a style I have not seen in other muslim jineta swords, but in many medieval swords. Tough I have not seen all the muslim jineta swords and I can be mistaken.

Another point of interest is the fact that there is a mention of two kinds of metals composing the blade: softer steel in the core and harder steel in the outside or envelope of the blade. This could point more to an european production, though I can’t make a definitive statement about this point, as the history of the sword production in the Iberian Peninsula in this time period is yet to be made, in my opinion, and the possible differences among arab and christian methods is also to be established (or at least, I must confess that I have no knowledge about any comparative study of this kind). But this mention also produces more questions about the place of production of this sword, since part of Andalusia was in the hands of christians, and part in the hands of the arabs. Which cities or places in Andalusia produced swords in this period? Is this an arab, or a christian produced sword? Is there a time period in which this kind of blades is common in many countries in Europe? Or, is this kind of blade a specific and exclusive product of certain geographical and cultural area?

Returning to the point of the craft of a medieval blade: some sources (Allan R. Williams, ‘Methods of Manufacture of Swords in Medieval Europe: Illustrated by the Metallography of Some Examples’, in Gladius Vol. XIII, 1977) mention the use of pattern welding technique as the method used predominantly in Europe to the 10th Century. During the 10th -11th Century, according with this source, the swords were made frequently by a simple piling of iron and steel bars. Blades from the 11th -15th Centuries are described to be manufactured by a single bar of iron, case-carburized once the blade is made, or welding separate pieces of iron and steel, or welding different kinds of steel. But this source only studied swords outside of the Iberian Peninsula, and only belonged to a small group of samples. Spanish sources (Fraxno and Bouligny) mention the systematic use of iron cored blades, in an envelope of steel in the manufacture of spanish sword blades in the city of Toledo. From other source, we know those methods were used at least from the 18th Century by the bladesmiths from this city (José María Peláez Valle, ‘Comentarios Metalúrgicos a la Tecnología de Procesos de Elaboración del Acero de las Espadas de Toledo Descritas en el Documento de Palomares de 1772’, in Gladius, Vol. XVII, 1986). But in the same article, it is referenced that the Count of Valencia de Don Juan, wrote that when Dionisio Corrientes, a famous toledan bladesmith, died in 1773, also died the last bladesmith who knew the old antique techniques to make swords. The disappearance of the traditional toledan techniques in making blades and the lack of continuity of the old traditions is additionally pointed out in the article ‘Los cuchillos de Albacete’, by Juan J. Rodríguez Lorente, in Gladius, Vol. VI, 1967: ‘…as it seems to be evident from the fact that only an old master from Valencia {another city} could be found to take the direction of the new Factory {the Toledo Factory of Edged Weapons, founded in 1760}, when the old toledan bladesmiths and their traditions already had died or were about to die. I have not found information about the techniques used by the spanish arabs or mozarabs to make swords, and if they were different from the ones used by the christians in the non-arab dominated area. It must be said that the tests conducted in the laboratories of the Complutense University do not produce any certainty that the sword in fact belonged to El Cid, as they can only increase the factual possibility of this belonging, and, as I have mentioned before, I don’t know if the autentification documents were also recovered with the sword, and when these papers were made.

Another point of interest in this article is the reference to this blade as ‘cemented’, or case-oven hardened. This is gives us another interpretation about the two different kind of steels composing the blade and the process of manufacture. Also, it seems that Marrero had other sources with information about the results from the Complutense study, and he makes several interesting statements taken from his sources. The responsible of the study was the Prof. Antonio José Criado, the basis to state that the blade is andalusian seems to be the comparison of this blade with archaeological cementated or case hardened objects from the andalusian and Toledo area (nails and such), the blade had supposedly a double interrupted quenching and the name of tizona was given, according with this source, to any exceptional sword of this type. There is a strange reference to a history from the arab chronicler Al-Hulal about a gift to the almoravid emir Abu Bekr in the mid 11th Century, from his relative the emir Tusuf, of a set of ‘tizonas’. It is not specified if the swords were made in the Iberian Peninsula, as these emirs still were on North Africa at the moment when the gift was made.

Interestingly, is the fact that the owners of the Colada refused to submit this sword to a similar study in the Complutense University laboratories (Juan Antonio Marrero Cabrera, ‘La Tizona en Palacio’, in Militaria, No. 14, 2000). I wonder by which reasons they didn´t want their sword to be tested. In this last article, it also mentioned that the inscription dating the Tizona was made two centuries latter, in the 13th Century, meanwhile the article about the dating of the Tizona in Gladius seems to place this inscription more latter, so the date, based on the inscription, can be reasonably be questioned. I wonder why somebody felt the need to make this inscription with the use of acid, as if the sword needed additional validation. Other specialists have been questioned the age of this blade based in the general typology of the swords from this period. These facts had produced before serious doubts about the authenticity of the sword, and some people suspected a forgery. It was not rare to make forgeries or replications of older swords in the actual territory of Spain, especially in the 19th Century, as we can infer from the numerous items found from this kind in the present day.
Regards

Gonzalo

[Reventlov]

I am resurrecting this excellent thread for my own purposes... I am pleased to announce that an article of mine on the swords Tizona and Colada has been published in the most recent (December) issue of Medieval Warfare magazine. While much of it may not be new information, I think I have at least touched on a few points that are not well known.

https://www.academia.edu/35847672/Th...act_and_legend

The space and format of the magazine are much too limited to go into much detail so a lot of my background research could not possibly be included. During my research I found again and again that many supposedly scholarly sources repeated claims without proper citation, or claims that are un-sourced or even contradicted by original sources. I am currently working on compiling my notes into a "proper" literature review, but this has become a much larger project than I first expected... In the meantime, I hope the article may provide some fuel for discussion!

Happy reading,
Mark

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Lorenz,
Its great to have you come in on this with us, and we have agreed, this does seem to be developing into just the intriguing discussion I hoped it would be. I'm glad you added the Calvert reference, as this has stood for some time as one of the few references to Spanish arms in English. Your mention of the dearth of reference to Tizona and Colada is something I also have thought extremely unusual in looking through this work, which is intended to focus on the importance of this collection and Spanish arms in general ...

Hi Jim,

Yes indeed, a very interesting topic to say the least!

While Googling for colada and tizona, I found this Wikipedia article on the List of magical weapons, which is mainly about swords. Here's an excerpt, and I highlighted the subject swords for easier browsing:

In folklore

Sword Kladenets – a fabulous magic sword in some Old Russian fairy tales.

Green Dragon Crescent Blade – Exceptionally heavy guandao wielded by Guan Yu in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms; forged from the body of a dragon.

Dyrnwyn – Sword of Rhydderch Hael in Welsh legend; When drawn, it blazed with fire; if drawn by a worthy man, the fire would help him in his cause, but its fire would burn the man who drew it for an unworthy purpose.

Hrunting and Nægling – Beowulf's magical swords.

Shamshir-e Zomorrodnegar – Legendary Persian sword.

Skofnung – sword of legendary Danish king Hrólf Kraki.

Thunderbolt – as wielded by various mythological deities such as Zeus.

Vajra – A composite weapon made from the bones of a willing sage used by Indra.

Zulfiqar – a sword gifted from God to Imam Ali

Taming Sari - a keris owned by mythical Malay warrior Hang Tuah. It possesses supernatural powers, bestowing invincibility to its wielder. According to one story, Hang Tuah fought the Majapahit warrior who owned the keris to a standstill, unable to defeat him. Later, after using trickery to switch weapons, Hang Tuah won easily.

Norse mythology

Gram – Sword of the hero Sigurd from Norse mythology, also known as Nothung in the Ring cycle

Gungnir – Odin's spear.

Hrotti – Part of the treasure of the dragon Fafnir.

Lævateinn – A weapon mentioned in Fjölsvinnsmál.

Mjolnir – The hammer of Thor.

Tyrfing – A sword made by dwarves in the Elder Edda.


Irish mythology

Fragarach – Sword of the god of the seas Manannan mac Lir and later Lugh in Irish legend; it was said to be a weapon that no armour could stop.

Caladbolg – Two-handed sword of Fergus mac Róich in Irish legend; said to make a circle like an arc of rainbow when swung, and to have the power to cleave the tops from the hills.

Claíomh Solais – Sword of Nuada the king of the gods in Irish mythology; In legend, the sword glowed with the light of the sun and was irresistible in battle, having the power to cut his enemies in half.

Gáe Bulg – Spear of Cúchulainn; made from the bones of a sea monster.

Spear of Lugh – Spear of Lugh, the champion of the gods in Irish Mythology.


Arthurian legend

Excalibur – King Arthur's magical war sword.

Clarent – King Arthur's sword of peace. Also sometimes known as Mordred's sword that he used to kill King Arthur

Cernwennan - King Arthur's dagger

Rhongomiant - King Arthur's Spear


The Song of Roland

Almace – The sword of Archbishop Turpin.

Durendal – Indestructible sword of Roland.

Hauteclere – The sword of Oliver.

Joyeuse – Charlemagne's personal sword.


Japanese folklore

Ame-no-nuboko – Japanese halberd which formed the first island.

Kusanagi – Legendary Japanese sword.

Tonbogiri – one of three legendary spears created by the famed swordsmith Masazane.


Spanish folklore

Tizona - the sword of El Cid, it frightens unworthy opponents, as shown in the heroic poem Cantar de Mio Cid.

Colada - the other sword of El Cid, as Tizona its power depends on the warrior that wields it.

The lance of Olyndicus, the celtiberians' war chief who fought against Rome. According to Florus, he wielded a silver lance that was sent to him by the gods from the sky.


In novels

Mournblade - An enchanted blade from Michael Moorcocks stories.

Nehima – Lirael and Abhorsen by Garth Nix.

Stormbringer – Vampiric demon blade in Michael Moorcocks stories.

Sword of Martin – weapon from the Redwall series of novels by Brian Jacques.

The Sword of Truth - The sword wielded by the Seeker of Truth in the Terry Goodkind novels.

The Sword of Shannara - The sword enchanted by the druids to reveal truth in Terry Brooks novels.

Zar'roc and Brisingr Eragon's sword's in the Inheritance Cycle by Christopher Paolini

Rivenscryr- Sword of Tylar ser Noche in the God Slayer Chronicles by James Clemens, it has the power to slay the gods entirely, killing all aspects of them.

Callandor - The sword that is not a sword, a powerful sa'angreal in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series.

Soren, a sword in the Tara series by Madden Grimm

Ruyi Jingu Bang - An magical staff wielded by Sun Wukong in Journey to the West


The works of J. R. R. Tolkien

Anglachel – one of the two swords forged by Eöl the Dark Elf out of a black iron meteorite. It is said to be able to cleave any iron from within the earth. Anglachel appears to be a sentient sword that speaks on occasion and has some will of its own.

Glamdring, Orcrist and Sting – High-Elven swords; glow with a blue or white flame when Orcs are near.

Morgul-blade – magical poisoned dagger wielded by Nazgûl.

Caudimordax – this sword cannot be sheathed when a dragon comes within five miles of its bearer's presence.

Andúril/Narsil- the sword of Elendil (Narsil) reforged in Anduril on the return of his true heir, Aragorn- the reforging of the shards of Narsil was foretold as a sign of the coming of the true King of Gondor

Aiglos- the spear with which the Elven king Gil-galad went to war.

I don't know whether it's fair to put the historical colada and tizona in the above quoted list, as most of the blades there are fictitious.

Anyways, I just thought I'd throw in the above list for whatever it's worth!

[Jim McDougall]

Yikes, Lorenz!!
Now thats compehensive,
Thank you for adding this list, and it does show the mythical weapons of literary classics and legend...and as you note, many, if not most are in some degree either fictitious or contained in illustrious descriptive metaphor.

With a number of these weapons, they actually existed, however they have been embellished or metaphorically described in so much literature that often conflicts with another, that in cases where these swords are supposed to still exist, there are unsurprisingly disputed perspectives on their authenticity.

Heroic figures such as El Cid, Charlemagne, Joan of Arc and so many others of course used swords, but they have reached such lofty stature in legend, it almost seems that to hold a sword said to have belonged to any one of them would seem almost disappointing, as a mere mortal object. This is my own perception at least, though in my mind I choose to imagine what these swords were like.

I recall once researching a sword said to have been used by a heroic Scottish figure during the time of the English civil wars, who was said to have had a huge sword with a ten pound sliding weight on a rod on the blade, there to add force to the deadly cut. A writer was doing research for a period novel and wanted to add as much authenticity as possible, always admirable.
It was incredibly fascinating and I found most of the events and locations associated with the individual factual, however in varying degree embellished. For example a castle was actually a rather large home or estate, and as always, the battles were of course not like the movies.
The 'ten pound' weight was naturally impossible, and the first sign of improbability, for even in the unlikely case he was actually using a true claymore..the huge two hand sword, such a weight would make use of one of these uncontrollable....especially sliding up and down the blade!

The term 'claymore' as noted, typically describes these huge two hand swords used during medieval times, but had mostly fallen out of use in Scotland by the 17th century, naturally with known exceptions. Many of these huge blades did end up in the developing basket hilt form, made famous in Scotland, cut down from these heirloom two hand swords. In yet another case of the semantics and misinterpretations with the study of weapons, the term 'claymore' became popularly applied to the single hand basket hilts.
Pehaps this was due to the known use in so many cases of 'claymore' blades, but whatever the case, in understanding contemporary literature and narratives, the conflicting terms can be confounding.

I never found any evidence of any sword with such a sliding weight on the blade, despite obviously the well known sliding bearings in open channels in the blades of 'tears of the wounded' swords of China, India and Persia. These were primarily ceremonial or parade type swords, with the sound of the moving bearings more thier purpose than any weight or force transfer.
I also found another mythical reference to such a blade with moving weight however, in a romanticized book about the famed Bowie knife, and of course regarded the context accordingly.

The sword attributed to the Scottish hero was eventually discovered, and honestly it was disappointing when there was no sliding weight, nor was it the huge claymore I imagined. Somehow, the stature of the hero himself to me was never compromised, and I realized that such a feature really was never needed, as the achievements of the man himself was the power and force. Perhaps even as mere mortals, we all have such power and force within ourselves in our own ways.
I'd like to think so...

All best regards,
Jim

[katana]

Swords such as Tizona and Colada have 'power' as political 'status' symbols. Later leaders may use such an 'icon' to 'rally' its people to a cause.

Holy relics (in Europe) were often faked, but the masses, unaware would travel 'hundreds of miles' on pilgrimages to view them. This gave the owners power, prestige and often , an income .

Hitler, himself, ordered the search for the 'spear of destiny', the spear alleged to have pierced Christ's side during the crucifixion. He realised, the political power and status he would gain by it's possession . In fact 'the' spear was recently denounced as a medieval fake ....

During the Crusades there is a story where they were heavily outnumbered and their morale low. A monk allegedly had a vision that the "holy lance" would aid them.

" .....Meanwhile in Antioch, on June 10 an otherwise poor and insignificant monk by the name of Peter Bartholomew came forward claiming to have had visions of St. Andrew, who told him that the Holy Lance was inside the city. The starving crusaders were prone to visions and hallucinations, and another monk named Stephen of Valence reported visions of Christ and the Virgin Mary. On June 14 a meteor was seen landing in the enemy camp, interpreted as a good omen. Although Adhemar was suspicious, as he had seen a relic of the Holy Lance in Constantinople, Raymond believed Peter. Raymond, Raymond of Aguilers, William, Bishop of Orange, and others began to dig in the cathedral of St. Peter on June 15, and when they came up empty, Peter went into the pit, reached down, and produced a spear point. Raymond took this as a divine sign that they would survive and thus prepared for a final fight rather than surrender. Peter then reported another vision, in which St. Andrew instructed the crusader army to fast for five days (although they were already starving), after which they would be victorious.

Bohemund was sceptical of the Holy Lance as well, but there is no question that its discovery increased the morale of the crusaders. It is also possible that Peter was reporting what Bohemund wanted, rather than what St. Andrew wanted, as Bohemund knew, from spies in Kerbogha's camp, that the various factions frequently argued with each other, and they would probably not work together as a cohesive unit in battle......"

http://www.stnicholas-billings.org/H...ochcapture.htm


It would seem likely, that these two swords have been replaced with impostors ..which would have been staunchly 'defended' as being the originals ...by those whom had possession of them ...to achieve their political agenda.. much like the 'holy relics'......

In my opinion, the web of lies and deceit created would make research incredibly difficult as later generations continued to believe their truth.

Interesting thread

Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

Outstanding history David ! and its great to look further into so much of this that is connected to the weapons that took part in it. This is exactly what I believe the study of weapons and thier development and history is about.

It is true that the weapons attributed to key historic and heroic figures are indeed important icons that carry tremendous power in promoting national pride and often patriotic fervor. The 'Spear of Longinus' is another great example of this concept of power symbolized by a weapon as an icon.

Actually, though there is a great deal of PR work that seems to have been involved with many weapons of such legendary stature, but I often wonder if there is not a degree of actuality in many cases. The weapons on display in museums of course are often restored or at least receive maintainance for thier preservation.

I am not sure on the Tizona or Colada swords, but in the case of the Boabdil sword which has elaborate mounts that may be end of 15th century, but also may be early 16th. Some references claim the blade is probably Berber, yet note it appears pattern welded. As always, I disclaim any great understanding of metallurgy, but whatever the case is with the blade, the fact that it seems to have been remounted with a more elaborate hilt to better represent the stature of this extremely important and heroic figure.

It would seem quite possible that the blades on these weapons might have been from the period claimed, and remounted in accord with more current fashion in a well meant show of respect. This is as least the concept I believe most commonly held with weapons held in high esteem in many cultures, and I know that many weapons were remounted many times in thier working lives.

There were apparantly tests on the blade of the Tizona sword, but it seems unclear on the actual outcome. On one hand it is claimed the blade is 11th century, and the other the same 15th-16th century attribution that seems to correspond to the Boabdil sword and Colada. Whether there is intentional deception involved, or simply stubborn refusal to let go of what is believed without regard for scientific or scholarly analysis is hard to say. It would be good to see some serious study in examining all of these swords, and if anyone is aware of any such case, I hope they will let us know here.

All best regards,
Jim

[migueldiaz]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you for adding this list, and it does show the mythical weapons of literary classics and legend...and as you note, many, if not most are in some degree either fictitious or contained in illustrious descriptive metaphor.

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the comments.

I guess all I can say is that if historical swords have joined the ranks of mythical and "magical" swords, then those real swords must really be that good whatever "good" means.

And the other thing that this veil of mystery does is that it continually feeds the legend, which then of course perpetuates the stories even more.

I guess a sword couldn't ask for more!

Originally Posted by katana

Swords such as Tizona and Colada have 'power' as political 'status' symbols. Later leaders may use such an 'icon' to 'rally' its people to a cause.

Hi David,

Thanks for your post. And expanding the discussion to include historical similarities surely puts the subject swords in better perspective.

Isn't it interesting that the deceased El Cid was used as a rallying point then, and his swords continue to be used as such apparently? So for political propagandists (for lack of a better word), to them I guess it's not important whether the thing is true or not.

Interesting thread indeed ...

PS - On the power of belief and as an aside, as Neo (The Matrix) said "There is no spoon."