Cossack's saif?

Yustas · 3rd February 2009, 05:21 AM

Another sabre for identification.
Looks like persian saif for me, but there are picture of St. Mary with a child on the blade, and a herald on other one.
By the what could it mean?

ariel · 3rd February 2009, 11:13 PM

The "camel head" configuration of the pommel reminds me of Balkan sabers.
The blade is European, and the Slavic "P"'s are intriguing. Whose crown is it?
Gorgeous sword! If ever you are tired of it, send me a PM :-)

Yustas · 3rd February 2009, 11:27 PM

Unfortunately (or fortunatly) it is not mine, and not for sale. This is a museum's piece. I was trying to figure out how it is related to Ukrainian Cosscks. does this herald mean anything? It looks like a seal of one of the polks (regiments) for me.

ariel · 4th February 2009, 12:14 AM

The more I look, the more queries I have.
The horse is very "artistic":kind of " free spirit", instead of heraldic military. Looks almost modern to me. And why is a part of the stamp located on the edge, without noticeable damage? Wasn't the blade sharpened?
What museum is this one and the other one come from?

Atlantia · 4th February 2009, 12:36 AM

Lovely sword. very similar simple crossguard to one I have which was discussed here.

Yustas · 4th February 2009, 01:27 AM

Let's just say it is a small museum in USA.
The whole blade and handle is in very good shape, almoust no use. Looks like it was sharpened once in lifetime, no dents on the blade, so no reason for picture to fade, or distort.
I'll post picture of Mary with Child that is on the other side. (When i get home)
But my main point here is to figure out it's relation to Ukrainian history.
First, is it real?
Second, when approximately was it made?
Third, where it was made?
Same questins to the other sabre. I would really appreciate your taughts.
By the way, i have pictures for some other beutifull pieces for discussion if you're interested.

ariel · 4th February 2009, 02:28 AM

More swords?
Na-a-a-a-h... too boring :-)
But of course, post away! That's the whole idea!

ariel · 4th February 2009, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Lovely sword. very similar simple crossguard to one I have which was discussed here.

That's another inconsistency: everything looks European and is made of silver, but the crossguard is of Persian type and iron...

Atlantia · 4th February 2009, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

That's another inconsistency: everything looks European and is made of silver, but the crossguard is of Persian type and iron...

Its certainly a mix of um styles.
The engraved 'crest' on the blade with the horse in it is interesting. The Crown does look like the Russian Imperial crown, and the sword crossed with the arrow looks like a 'saif'. But the overall 'look' of the engraving looks like its from that part of the world, so is it an addition or original to the blade?

Yustas · 4th February 2009, 04:06 AM

OK, here is other side of the blade
http://picasaweb.google.com/yura.sor...90951982181378

And the bigger album - http://picasaweb.google.com/yura.soroka/KozakCossack#

See yourself, what do like...to talk about. I have few more pics on my home comp.

Atlantia · 4th February 2009, 04:32 AM

The picture of the Virgin looks like a Russian orthodox representation.

Interesting it has the flower like this one:

'Virgin Mary in Blue/Fragrant Flower

The icon depicts the Child seated on the Virgin Mary’s left arm and a stalk of a white lily in her right hand. The icon was kept in the Pokrov Monastery of Voronezh. The flower is symbolic of the unfading bloom of virginity. '

Damn! you've got some nice weapons in those pictures!

Yustas · 4th February 2009, 04:38 AM

Why Russian?
Christian tradition of Moscovia 300 years ago (Russia now) coming out from Kyivska Rus' - current Ukraine.

Yustas · 4th February 2009, 04:42 AM

And yes, thank you, Atlantia.

Atlantia · 4th February 2009, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yustas

Why Russian?
Christian tradition of Moscovia 300 years ago (Russia now) coming out from Kyivska Rus' - current Ukraine.

Sorry, I mean that part of the universe. (getting too old I think! Its all still the USSR in my head!)
Its an orthodox Christian image.

I guess a way to possibly pin it geographically is by the other elements of the horse crest/coat or arms?
The crossed sword and arrow is distinctlive.
Apart from that.
The crown looks like the Russian one, the silverwork looks like that on 'cossak' belts, the icon is an Orthodox one.

Seems like its been in 'that' area.

Remounted captured or imported weapon?

ingvar · 4th February 2009, 06:14 AM

its a very nice parade sabre, hence the blade is intact.

pommel is and obvious trophy arab saif. scabbard all silver with a snake skin.

The blade, since it wasnt used in combat, is of a fair quality, not sahrpened. One side has a depiction of Pokrova - cossacks safeguard the other side has the badge of the military unit the owner would belong to. in this case its the Kodak Palanka on the Dnieper. Badge circa 1770 i think.

ward · 4th February 2009, 08:07 AM

This is a Hyderabad Arab sword with a European blade, mounted in probably an Eastern European scabbard. Lot of trade between Asia, Caucasus, Russia etc.

Gavin Nugent · 4th February 2009, 10:32 AM

For what it is worth, my two cents places the hilt and scabbard throat as Arabian Saif, The scabbard has a Turkish style to it in my eyes but the ray/shark skin insert has a central Asian flavour to it....no comment on the blade at this time.

Nice looking piece though....

Gav

Yustas · 4th February 2009, 04:20 PM

Hello Ingvar.
Thank you for bege ID.
This is explains a lot. Is it possible that sabre was assembled as a gift, or custom ordered for a "polkovnyk" of that regiment? That may explain the international assembly of different part of the sabre? I know, that countries were buying and selling blades themselves, as raw material, that was fitted with appropriate handle and scabbard.
BTW, scabbard and hendle look like perfect match to me. Same time, same technique, same material and design.

ingvar · 4th February 2009, 04:36 PM

the blade does look turkish? but it was made for decorative purposes only.

regarding the matching scabbard. whoever ordered to make this this definately had money to pick a guy who can match the pommel design.

rand · 4th February 2009, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yustas

OK, here is other side of the blade
http://picasaweb.google.com/yura.sor...90951982181378

And the bigger album - http://picasaweb.google.com/yura.soroka/KozakCossack#

See yourself, what do like...to talk about. I have few more pics on my home comp.

From the album #7 has an inscription in square kufic script and #17 is a royal signature, probably 19th century.

rand

Yustas · 5th February 2009, 02:52 AM

Rand,
Any idea what that seal means?

Iliad · 8th February 2009, 01:38 AM

Hi all, I have nothing of value to say, but some pics to contribute. This is a similar sword to the one being discussed, so I thought it may be of interest to other contributors. Best regards to all,
Brian

3rd February 2009, 11:27 PM	#3
Yustas Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 40	Hm :) Unfortunately (or fortunatly) it is not mine, and not for sale. This is a museum's piece. I was trying to figure out how it is related to Ukrainian Cosscks. does this herald mean anything? It looks like a seal of one of the polks (regiments) for me.

4th February 2009, 06:14 AM	#15
ingvar Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 11	Cossack's saif? its a very nice parade sabre, hence the blade is intact. pommel is and obvious trophy arab saif. scabbard all silver with a snake skin. The blade, since it wasnt used in combat, is of a fair quality, not sahrpened. One side has a depiction of Pokrova - cossacks safeguard the other side has the badge of the military unit the owner would belong to. in this case its the Kodak Palanka on the Dnieper. Badge circa 1770 i think. Attached Images

8th February 2009, 01:38 AM	#22
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Saif? Hi all, I have nothing of value to say, but some pics to contribute. This is a similar sword to the one being discussed, so I thought it may be of interest to other contributors. Best regards to all, Brian Attached Images

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3rd February 2009, 05:21 AM	#1
Yustas Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 40	Cossack's saif? Another sabre for identification. Looks like persian saif for me, but there are picture of St. Mary with a child on the blade, and a herald on other one. By the what could it mean? Attached Images

3rd February 2009, 11:13 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The "camel head" configuration of the pommel reminds me of Balkan sabers. The blade is European, and the Slavic "P"'s are intriguing. Whose crown is it? Gorgeous sword! If ever you are tired of it, send me a PM :-)

4th February 2009, 12:14 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The more I look, the more queries I have. The horse is very "artistic":kind of " free spirit", instead of heraldic military. Looks almost modern to me. And why is a part of the stamp located on the edge, without noticeable damage? Wasn't the blade sharpened? What museum is this one and the other one come from?

4th February 2009, 12:36 AM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Lovely sword. very similar simple crossguard to one I have which was discussed here.

4th February 2009, 01:27 AM	#6
Yustas Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 40	Let's just say it is a small museum in USA. The whole blade and handle is in very good shape, almoust no use. Looks like it was sharpened once in lifetime, no dents on the blade, so no reason for picture to fade, or distort. I'll post picture of Mary with Child that is on the other side. (When i get home) But my main point here is to figure out it's relation to Ukrainian history. First, is it real? Second, when approximately was it made? Third, where it was made? Same questins to the other sabre. I would really appreciate your taughts. By the way, i have pictures for some other beutifull pieces for discussion if you're interested.

4th February 2009, 02:28 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	More swords? Na-a-a-a-h... too boring :-) But of course, post away! That's the whole idea!

4th February 2009, 04:06 AM	#10
Yustas Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 40	OK, here is other side of the blade http://picasaweb.google.com/yura.sor...90951982181378 And the bigger album - http://picasaweb.google.com/yura.soroka/KozakCossack# See yourself, what do like...to talk about. I have few more pics on my home comp.

4th February 2009, 04:32 AM	#11
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	The picture of the Virgin looks like a Russian orthodox representation. Interesting it has the flower like this one: 'Virgin Mary in Blue/Fragrant Flower The icon depicts the Child seated on the Virgin Mary’s left arm and a stalk of a white lily in her right hand. The icon was kept in the Pokrov Monastery of Voronezh. The flower is symbolic of the unfading bloom of virginity. ' Damn! you've got some nice weapons in those pictures!

4th February 2009, 04:38 AM	#12
Yustas Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 40	Why Russian? Christian tradition of Moscovia 300 years ago (Russia now) coming out from Kyivska Rus' - current Ukraine.

4th February 2009, 04:42 AM	#13
Yustas Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 40	And yes, thank you, Atlantia.

4th February 2009, 08:07 AM	#16
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	This is a Hyderabad Arab sword with a European blade, mounted in probably an Eastern European scabbard. Lot of trade between Asia, Caucasus, Russia etc.

4th February 2009, 10:32 AM	#17
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	My two cents For what it is worth, my two cents places the hilt and scabbard throat as Arabian Saif, The scabbard has a Turkish style to it in my eyes but the ray/shark skin insert has a central Asian flavour to it....no comment on the blade at this time. Nice looking piece though.... Gav

4th February 2009, 04:20 PM	#18
Yustas Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 40	Hello Ingvar. Thank you for bege ID. This is explains a lot. Is it possible that sabre was assembled as a gift, or custom ordered for a "polkovnyk" of that regiment? That may explain the international assembly of different part of the sabre? I know, that countries were buying and selling blades themselves, as raw material, that was fitted with appropriate handle and scabbard. BTW, scabbard and hendle look like perfect match to me. Same time, same technique, same material and design.

4th February 2009, 04:36 PM	#19
ingvar Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 11	the blade does look turkish? but it was made for decorative purposes only. regarding the matching scabbard. whoever ordered to make this this definately had money to pick a guy who can match the pommel design.

5th February 2009, 02:52 AM	#21
Yustas Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 40	Rand, Any idea what that seal means?