More info about Atjeh weapons?

[erikscollectables]

A few months ago I started to extend my small keris collection with some Atjeh weapons.

Where can I learn more? I take learning seriously!

I already have Zonneveld of course and I even bought the classical ethnographical study "Atjehers" by Dr Snouck Hurgronje from 1893...

So what is next?

Hope to learn more here about good study materials.

Regards, Erik

Some of the nicer items I was able to find

[Battara]

Welcome Erik. NIce stuff - would you show better pictures of the rencong?

All of these look to be royal or courtly.

[RhysMichael]

Welcome to the forum. A nice collection you have I would love to see more photos of them

You may want to look for "Hands of Time - Crafts of the Aceh" by Barbara Leigh. and The Weapons and Fighting Arts of Indonesia, by Don F. Draeger, Blanke Wapens if you can find a copy is a good book as well. CATALOGUE DE LA COLLECTION D'ARMES ANCIENNES EUROPEENNES ET ORIENTALES by Chalres Buttin, HISTORY OF SUMATRA, CONTAINING AN ACCOUNT OF THE GOVERNMENT, LAWS, CUSTOMS, AND MANNERS OF THE NATIVE INHABITANTS, WITH A DESCRIPTION OF THE NATURAL PRODUCTIONS, AND A RELATION OF THE ANCIENT POLITICAL STATE OF THAT ISLAND." by William Marsden, F.R.S. published 1811 has a little on them. COURT ARTS OF INDONESIA The Asia Society Galleries 1990, SWORDS AND DAGGERS OF INDONESIA Vaclav Solc



Albert G. van Zonneveld who you mentioned of actually posts here when he has time to look in and is a great resource to this forum and was kind enough to mail me some documents not available in Virginia.

There are many here who have helped me a great bit with Aceh weapons. (Paul Vermeiren, Erik Farrow, Ariel Barkan and Dominique Buttin to name a few) with apologies to the many others who helped me that I have left out) I tried to compile what I learned here and here is the page I put together on that. It should not be considered complete or without errors as it is a work in progress. Willem and Michael who post here hasvesome nice Aceh pieces hopefully will post soon on these. Utami was our man on the ground in indonesia so to speak but he has not posted on here in a while

http://home.comcast.net/~jtcrosby/Aceh.html

Here are several of papers from the First International Conference of Aceh and Indian Ocean Studies that may be of interest here.

Aceh Histories in the KITLV Images Archive


Ottoman-Aceh Relations According to the Turkish Sources

Aceh as a Muslim-Malay Cultural Centre (14th-15th Century)

Aceh through Portuguese Eyes - Views of an Indian Ocean Port-State

The Historical Place of Acehnese: The Known and the Unknown

Aceh as a field for ancient history studies

A little more complete graphic on Huku that has not made it to the webpage yet



Acouple of museum links

http://ccindex.kit.nl/ Tropenmuseum, Amsterdam

http://www.rmv.nl/index.aspx?lang=en (Database National Museum of Ethnology, Leiden)

http://www.kitlv.nl/hisdoc.html (Royal Netherlands Institute of Southeast Asian and Carribean Studies)

[Dajak]

I would assume take an good look at the collection off Richard an ask him
about Atjeh weapons you can learn more from him than out books.

And try to collect on quality not on quantity .


Ben

[erikscollectables]

Michael, great stuff!
Thanks for all the links and books!
Regards, Erik

[erikscollectables]

Indeed and I did, great collection and even greater guy!

But apart from the physical aspects of the weapon I also try to learn about their historical and antropological context. That knowledge comes mainly from books written in the end of 19th century.

Much was written about the Dutch-Aceh wars but also some good books about the antroplogy of Northern Sumatra (Gayo is interesting as well for me).
I consider the books by Snouck Hurgronje as good sources from several point of view but hope to find more!

I come across many collectors (not Richard though!) that just repeat what they heard from another collector that started earlier.
What I try to do is bring it a step forward by going back to some of the original sources and start developing from that point onward.

As the photo shows (I hope) my focus is on quality but of course I want to develop further and improve the collection (as far as I can pay of course).

Thanks again, Erik

Originally Posted by Dajak

I would assume take an good look at the collection off Richard an ask him
about Atjeh weapons you can learn more from him than out books.

And try to collect on quality not on quantity .


Ben

[VVV]

Welcome to the forum and I look forward to watch the coming nice pictures of your collection.
I would recommend Kreemer's book and Fischer's Leiden Catalogue on Aceh (Sumatra I) as well.
And if Ben recommends you to go to Richard, who I don't know myself, of course that's a must.

Michael

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by erikscollectables

Indeed and I did, great collection and even greater guy!

But apart from the physical aspects of the weapon I also try to learn about their historical and antropological context. That knowledge comes mainly from books written in the end of 19th century.

Much was written about the Dutch-Aceh wars but also some good books about the antroplogy of Northern Sumatra (Gayo is interesting as well for me).
I consider the books by Snouck Hurgronje as good sources from several point of view but hope to find more!

I come across many collectors (not Richard though!) that just repeat what they heard from another collector that started earlier.
What I try to do is bring it a step forward by going back to some of the original sources and start developing from that point onward.

As the photo shows (I hope) my focus is on quality but of course I want to develop further and improve the collection (as far as I can pay of course).

Thanks again, Erik

Hi Erik,

Send a mail to ar.leen@tele2.nl and I will send a PDF with the chapter from Kreemers book about Aceh weapons. ( its in dutch)

[erikscollectables]

Mail sent and many thanks in advance for the PDF!

It looks like the holidayseasons will bring some nice reading materials!

Regards, Erik

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

Hi Erik,

Send a mail to ar.leen@tele2.nl and I will send a PDF with the chapter from Kreemers book about Aceh weapons. ( its in dutch)

[erikscollectables]

So what about crowns?

Not so much about their philosophical meaning which is discussed in Zonneveld but in view of hierarchy/status.

What I hear is that the use of golden crowns was limited to the ruling classes in Aceh.

Who knows more anf if possible with sources.

Eg:

What is the differenece between a double crown and a triple crown.
Is it a question a rank? Or money? Or social status?

The same with a double crown with yellow gold and suassa as in my photo.
Is it so as I read in a posting here somwhere that suassa was not seen as gold in Atjeh?
So is that a type of crown that could be used by anybody (with enough money of course...)

Many questions does anybody have ideas on this subject?

[Mytribalworld]

Originally Posted by erikscollectables

So what about crowns?

Not so much about their philosophical meaning which is discussed in Zonneveld but in view of hierarchy/status.

What I hear is that the use of golden crowns was limited to the ruling classes in Aceh.

Who knows more anf if possible with sources.

Eg:

What is the differenece between a double crown and a triple crown.
Is it a question a rank? Or money? Or social status?

The same with a double crown with yellow gold and suassa as in my photo.
Is it so as I read in a posting here somwhere that suassa was not seen as gold in Atjeh?
So is that a type of crown that could be used by anybody (with enough money of course...)

Many questions does anybody have ideas on this subject?

Hi Erik,

Mail you but the files was too big , I placed a link to the free PDF on my site so it should work better to download . Its on the frontpage in the lower leftcorner.Just click on "Aceh weapons download" . here my site www.mytribalworld.com maybe also others want to download if they don't have it.

Arjan.

[erikscollectables]

Some pics of the rentjong as requested.
All tips of the crown complete.
It did see some battle use I gues but overall nice shape.
Does not seem to have had enemal in it though.

[erikscollectables]

Downloaded and quickly read it.
Great stuff, many thanks, this is really interesting!

Erik

Originally Posted by mandaukudi

Hi Erik,

Mail you but the files was too big , I placed a link to the free PDF on my site so it should work better to download . Its on the frontpage in the lower leftcorner.Just click on "Aceh weapons download" . here my site www.mytribalworld.com maybe also others want to download if they don't have it.

Arjan.

[kai]

Hello Erik,

Welcome to the forum! That's an impressive collection of yours!

Nice to have more people posting on Aceh pieces...

Here's a link to one of my rencong .

Drop me an email via the forum and I'll try to send you some PDFs on Aceh.

Regards,
Kai

[asomotif]

Nice and cosy Aceh 'get together'

Welcome Erik !

Some time ago we had a discussion about the combi of inlay and golden crowns.
I see that Erik also has a Sikin with gold inlay and a buffalo horn hilt showing remains of a golden crown. Same as Kai's rencong and Fernando's Sikin.

Ps. does anyone have an Aceh sewar in their collection ?

[kai]

Hello Erik,

What I hear is that the use of golden crowns was limited to the ruling classes in Aceh.

Who knows more anf if possible with sources.

It seems that decorations on weapons were not studied in detail during the early colonial era - I haven't come across any suitable references yet. Maybe some valuable info are buried in old Dutch goverment documents but it will take a lot of effort to screen through these...

What is the differenece between a double crown and a triple crown.
Is it a question a rank? Or money? Or social status?

The same with a double crown with yellow gold and suassa as in my photo.

I'd assume that this is a "lesser crown" - just guessing though! Same-o with single/double/triple "crowns" and rounded/plainer vs. pointy/elaborate tips.

Basically all societies in SE Asia were highly stratified with rank/status acquired by birth and possibly modified by notable accomplishments throughout life. The social relationships were governed by adat & hormat - a complex set of customs and rules that extended into all spheres of life and interconnected the whole society. While there seems to be not that much specific info on traditional Aceh culture surviving, this conserved social structure allows to make some reasonable estimates (working hypotheses).

Is it so as I read in a posting here somwhere that suassa was not seen as gold in Atjeh?

Suassa was valued for its gold content as well as its relative resistance against patination (unlike the "lesser" silver) - of course, gold was more valuable. Since "pure" gold (14k and more) was frowned upon for men, diluted gold (about 10k) was seen as a viable alternative. However, most rulers and their families didn't seem to have bothered too much about not wearing "pure" gold...

So is that a type of crown that could be used by anybody (with enough money of course...)

Certainly not by anybody (see above) - suassa was most certainly limited to local leaders and other people of higher status. Rich people without "suitable" familial background usually tried to marry into a family of high status; a strategy not unheard of to this very day...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Willem,

I see that Erik also has a Sikin with gold inlay and a buffalo horn hilt showing remains of a golden crown. Same as Kai's rencong and Fernando's Sikin.

Yup, I noticed that, too.

I think we're getting a convincing pattern here. (4 examples and counting...)

Ps. does anyone have an Aceh sewar in their collection ?

With gold/suassa decoration?

I think that Fig. 70B in Jean Greffioz's keris book shows an interesting rencong/sewar intermediate.

Regards,
Kai

[Dajak]

[Some time ago we had a discussion about the combi of inlay and golden crowns.
I see that Erik also has a Sikin with gold inlay and a buffalo horn hilt showing remains of a golden crown. Same as Kai's rencong and Fernando s skin

You should get some better glasses Willem we can see here where the points

have been on the handle with fernando s one does not have this .


Ben

[asomotif]

Hi Ben

I thought you installed the ignore function

Not all decoration is pointy are they

[Gonzalo G]

I only want to thank RhysMichael and Mandaukudi you for all this references, links ans files. This support to a fellow collector is exemplar. I am not lucky enough to have this kind of weapons, but I least I collect information and photos.
Regards

Gonzalo

[VVV]

Originally Posted by asomotif

...Ps. does anyone have an Aceh sewar in their collection ?

I have a couple but the only one with crowns is this one which is later than the other crowned blades.
Its blade isn't so exciting as it needs some more cleaning.

Michael

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Hi Ben

I thought you installed the ignore function

Not all decoration is pointy are they

Yes maybe not pointy but if they had the gold ferrule always see the marks

If you buy this year your glasses you will be payed by the tax off the gouverment 823.00 euro x 113 % you will get it back in may 2009

so you buy new glasses and get back more from the Dutch gouverment .

This is the last year that it is possible . (this is for all the Dutch people or people that pay tax in the Netherlands)

An nice tip from me


Ben

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by VVV

I have a couple but the only one with crowns is this one which is later than the other crowned blades.
Its blade isn't so exciting as it needs some more cleaning.

Michael

Very nice one Michael

Is there something you don't have

Ben

[Mick]

I know that Michael remembers this one (and others like it), but the rest of you all might not have seen it.


http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=mick

[asomotif]

1st :
Michael,
Very nice sewar. Is it silver ?
This is something that you really don't see often.
But still I think I like rencong better.

2nd :
Ben,

but if they had the gold ferrule always see the marks

Here is the thread : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=aceh
and I am boroughing Fernando's pciture just for this thread.
For the record, Ben, you think this is not a mark from a missing ferrule.
Then I assume you regard this as a normal way of finishing the handle of a sikin

[Dajak]

Yes this is seen many times .

it is beter you go to groeneveld



Ben

[asomotif]

Yes this is seen many times .

it is beter you go to groeneveld

Does Groeneveld have sikins like this ?
Groeneveld, is that a collector or a museum ?
It sounds more like a opticien

Went to specsaver this summer, vision is perfectly fine.
I rest my case

[Maurice]

[VVV]

Originally Posted by asomotif

1st :
Michael,
Very nice sewar. Is it silver ?
This is something that you really don't see often.
But still I think I like rencong better.

Willem,

It's guilt silver. I also like the rencong better.
Here is my favourite version of crowns, gold and enamel.

Michael

[erikscollectables]

Okay with the risk of getting in the middle of a "fight" I'll give my opinion on Fernando's Sikin.

I think it did have a ferrule but not the pointed crown type or "poetjo" in Kreemers book (as on the rentjong in my photo) but a double crown of the "gloepa" or flower type according to Kreemer as the gold and suassa crown in my photo. Hence no points visible. It also explains the smalle size of the handle near the blade as Fernando already pointed out.

The "decoration" of the handle never continues on the location of the crown as far as I know now. I have seen a couple of dislocated crowns and those never have a decoration underneath.

My sikin with goldwork inlay clearly had a crown of the gloepa type, most likely a triple crown at that.
I recently have seen a great example with the same inlay type but also the crown still there! A "brother" of my sikin so to say.

Regards, Erik