19th century fencing foils

[William V.]

@ Chris:
I'm getting goosebumps thinking of some "professional" sharpening an old weapon... ... kind of raping....
Having two older beauties which were ground down to get a sharp point, my heart is breaking every time I see them
One is a "training weapon" for duels with a Klingenthal blade (around 1895), with the guard of o duelling weapon which used to have a flattened tip.
Nevertheless a wonderful piece, but... not original any more...
The sharping was done quite professional, I just found out when I checked the length of the weapon and compared it with other weapons.

I've attached two pics.

Coming back to the foil: perhaps the grooves on the grip were made to provide a grip for some kind of leather-wire binding
this would keep the wire in it's place.

All the best

William

[Chris Evans]

Hi William,

A very beautiful foil - Thanks for sharing.

Cheers
Chris

[broadaxe]

Beautiful indeed -
yet not a foil, but an epee, note the tri-blade. This is the main duelling weapon of the 19th century, along with the single shot pistol. The shallow hollow indicates an early blade (without a milled groove), the hilt combination suggests an age of 1860-1880's. I used to have a similar epee with a knight's head pommel but of iron rather brass, with a decorated steel dish guard, circa 1900.

[William V.]

Always a pleasure

As stated before: Someone tried to convert it into a "real" fencing weapon and seemed to have used some kind of cutter to sharpen the tip and part of the ricasso (nearly destroying the Klingenthal marking).

@broadaxe
Your dating is nearly correct. The bladesmith markings on the opposite side of the Klingenthal writing indicate 1895 as year of forging.
Can you tell me since when the "milled groove" was used? I was quite sure that it was widely used after electric fencing was invented (for epee this was around 1936); because this made things easier for the forges to meet the requirements of this "new" sport. Although I own a blade most probably dating before that date.
And may I ask how you draw the lines on your suggestion for the dating of the epee?
Thanks in advance.

William

[broadaxe]

Hmmm, I don't know exactly, but according to both Mr. Castanet and my good friend maestro Udi Carmi (The Israeli olympic fencing team coach and a fencing historian by himself), production of the old fashioned epee blade seized by 1940. The electric epee was indeed introduced in the 1936 Berlin Olympics but gained some use only about two decades later, and was reserved for official competitions only for long time.
The post 1940 epee blade has a deep v-shaped fuller, even in a "dry" blade (= non electric). Electric blade has additional deep narrow cuts at the ends of the fuller, to accomodate the conducting wire.
I will try to look up for examples.

By the way, check this fabulous foil here: http://cgi.ebay.com/NICE-FRENCH-19th...1%7C240%3A1318

[Chris Evans]

Hi William,

Broadaxe is absolutely right, I missed it, that is an epee and instead of having been vandalized, it is a sharp dueling weapon. I think that you have a valuable piece.

Cheers
Chris

[William V.]

@broadaxe

Thanks for the information. It seems quite logical to assume that electric epee fencing was reserved for competitions only (same goes for cable-less fencing today ).
I wouldn't say that blades with a groove for the electric wire in the ricasso are automatically post 1940. If you check the pictures below, you will see, that the blade doesn't have a groove, but is fitted with a point d'arret in a shape used in the late 40ties and 50ties (if I'm not mistaken).

Thanks for posting the link. Looks like a fine weapon even if I can't read the marking (perhaps someone elso can read it)

Which company used the "PR" marking? Does anyone know for sure? I would guess Prieur, but I have no proof so far...

@ Chris
Thanks for the flowers it is especially the guard of which I'm very fond of... if requested I may post a close up picture.

William

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by William V.

@broadaxe

@ Chris
Thanks for the flowers

My pleasure!

t is especially the guard of which I'm very fond of... if requested I may post a close up picture.

William

Please do.

Cheers
Chris

[broadaxe]

Originally Posted by William V.

@broadaxe

Thanks for the information. It seems quite logical to assume that electric epee fencing was reserved for competitions only (same goes for cable-less fencing today ).
I wouldn't say that blades with a groove for the electric wire in the ricasso are automatically post 1940. If you check the pictures below, you will see, that the blade doesn't have a groove, but is fitted with a point d'arret in a shape used in the late 40ties and 50ties (if I'm not mistaken).

William

William, of course not automatically; this was a process of develpment in the sport. The blade of your Souzy epee does have the deep & narrow milled canellure, but without the additional groove portals for the electric wire. I call this type an intermediate blade. As a point of interesting info, Souzy Paris closed its gates by WWII, so this epee must have been of their later days.

I'm posting here several pics of different types of blades to show differences:
1. Re-fitted dueling epee, came as loose parts without a knuckle bow. The present bow is new. Note the blade has a shallow wide canellure of the late 19th century type. Signed with a sytlized monogram.
2. All original grand epee - very similar blade signed crisply B.P.R. within a cartouche. Nickel-plated steel bowl guard, centered, nickel-plated faceted pommel, riveted tang, metal bound rayskin grip.
3. Point of the above epee - note how the blade turns from tri edge to square (where the arrow is) and tapers into a visciously sharp point.
4. Modern assembled dueling epee with a vintage 'intermadiate' blade - note deep & narrow milled canellure.
5. Electric blade.