New Addition #1 Bugis?

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Both of these blades exhibit evidence of being made by people with a high degree of skill in the use of tools. However, using the standards of beauty which I have been taught, the blade in the possession of Kino is far and away superior from an artistic point of view. This blade has flow and harmony, the blade attributed to Tok Chu is not harmonious, and there is no flow:- it is a statement of excellent craftsmanship, but it is not a statement of art.
I almost never post on the art of the keris, simply because I find it too difficult to express the necessary ideas in print, however, the contrast between these two blades provides an excellent example of the difference between art and craft.

I must say that i also much prefer kino's keris. Still, i have to wonder if the standards of beauty that you were taught, which are based upon Javanese standards, can be fully applied to a keris made on the peninsula.
That being said, i see what you mean and we share a similar aesthetic.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, I understand what you mean, David.

I'm applying a very high Javanese standard to a piece of work that comes from an area where it is entirely possible these standards were unknown.

Its a bit like appraising a Pro Hart (popular Aussie artist), or a Grandma Moses by the same standards that would be applied to an old master.

However, the contrast was just too good to let pass. Even if these standards cannot be applied to blades from this area, the blades themselves can serve as very good examples to allow me to make my point.

[BluErf]

Not that I'm taking the contrarian view for the sake of being different, but somehow, I thought Kino's blade was the one that was well-executed but somehow a little 'muddled' in the middle part. It has a strong base, an nice tip, but the middle is not a strong statement.

The suspected Tok Chu blade is strong and sure, with a lot of character.

But I agree that matters of aesthetics are a tricky matter. Some people prefer tall and waif-thin super models, others prefer women with a bit of extra flesh.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yes, I understand what you mean, David.

I'm applying a very high Javanese standard to a piece of work that comes from an area where it is entirely possible these standards were unknown.

Its a bit like appraising a Pro Hart (popular Aussie artist), or a Grandma Moses by the same standards that would be applied to an old master.

However, the contrast was just too good to let pass. Even if these standards cannot be applied to blades from this area, the blades themselves can serve as very good examples to allow me to make my point.

I may be stepping out on a limb here, because i admittedly do not know enough about peninsula blades to know what would or should be an acceptable or even preferred pawakan to the people that either of these blade would have been made for. Since you have brought up the art comparison Alan, there is the expression "Rubenesque" used when referring to some women. By popular Western standards of today such women might be considered fat and less desirable, but in their time and place they were the ideal. I also don't find your comparisons of Hart and Moses to the old masters acceptable. Grandma Moses (and i assume Hart) was an unskilled artist working in the style of folk art. I do not believe that there is any question as to the technical skill applied to the Tok Chu blade, just the aesthetics.
You say that you have used these two blades to comment on some very important aesthetic factors that may indeed be totally irrelevant. But if we can not apply these aesthetics to this style of keris then i am afraid that i miss your point. Since, as you say, trying to carry out this exercise on two Javanese blades would make it nearly impossible to distinguish a superb blade from a terrible one, i am not sure that i see how we can apply your comments at all. How can i take this information and apply it to other (Javanese?) keris, for instance, if the differences in these aspects of these keris would be so slight that my untrained eye probably wouldn't even see it? So why does it matter if the Tok Chu blade fails to meet Javanese criteria? Aren't we discussing apples and oranges here?

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for the reality check gentlemen --- I do sometimes forget the advice of Yoda.

Please regard my earlier posts to this thread as an error of judgment.

I will try not to repeat this error.

[BluErf]

Hi Alan,

Just curious, what teaching of Yoda were you referring to?

[A. G. Maisey]

Always remember where you are, and what you are doing.

[BluErf]

Hi Alan,

Oh, thanks. How about making a comparison between 2 Javanese kerises then? I'm sure the applicability of the comparison would not be in question, and forumnites would love to learn a bit or two. A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.