Orientation of the grip of this keris

BluErf · 23rd November 2008, 04:02 AM

Hi Jussi,

The relief carving showed an ancient blade which may or may not be the predecessor of the keris. Also, we do not know how the ancients used the earliest kerises, but staying in the here and now, we do see silat groups (i.e. Malay/Indon martial arts schools) which demonstrate the use of kerises as we know today. I'm in Singapore, somewhere in the heart of Southeast Asia, home to the keris, and I'm fortunate to see some of such silat demonstrations in person. Some of my Malay friends are actual silat practioners or are good enough to be in a position to instruct in silat.

I tried searching for a youtube video on how the Malay/Bugis keris is used, and I think the following is a good example to show how kerises are used now, and by extension, the likely position the hilt would have assumed for the purpose of fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDFgG_LhKlg

A. G. Maisey · 23rd November 2008, 04:52 AM

Kai Wee I agree that the relief carving from Candi Panataran, that Jussi has chosen to illustrate his point, is perhaps not the best for this purpose.

In spite of the fact that reproductions of this relief have been published many times in Indonesia to illustrate the historicity of the keris, in fact, it lacks some of the features that we would normally like to associate with the keris, including the archaic proto types of the keris.

This deficiency has never seemed to worry those Indonesian publishers though:- they simply altered the published images so that the missing gandik was magically included, and the blade became assymetric.

There are other representations of proto keris at Panataran, but I believe it is perhaps better to use one of the representations from Prambanan. This representation inarguably has the assymetric blade and gandik of the modern keris, and it dates from an earlier time than Panataran.

I have studied these carvings at first hand, under magnification, and over a period of years. I have obtained verification from Indonesian archeological officials as to the original state of the Prambanan carving shown here, and I have confirmed this verification by my own examination under magnification.

The image shown here from Prambanan is original, undamaged, and unaltered, and it shows a keris-like dagger which possesses many of the features of the modern keris. It also shows the way in which these daggers were used.

Jussi, correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I read your posts is that you are saying pretty much the same thing that I'm saying, that is:- we do not know exactly how the keris was used in the past, however, there is more than one possible way in which it could have been used.

David · 23rd November 2008, 06:31 AM

For me it is not a question as to whether the keris or even the proto-keris were or could be used in an overhand stabbing action. What we are talking about is the keris at hand in this thread. All of the proto-keris in these reliefs have an upright handle as far as i know. The angled handle presented in this thread and common to the other bugis keris that we are discussing with "reversed" hilts presents a completely different challenge if we consider using the "ice pick" grip for an overhand stab. I think that both Alan and Jussi are absolutely correct. We will never know exactly how the keris and proto-keris were used in the past and certainly more than one grip is a possibility. But i think the question in this thread must remain specific to this type of angled hilt, not the upright hilts of the proto-keris or other upright hilts common to other keris. What i am suggesting is that everyone who has such a keris at hand try these various grips with the hilt in these different positions.. How does it feel? Which grip feels "right" to you? For me the "ice pick" grip with the "reversed" hilt is just a bit awkward, though it is usable. It feels uncomfortable in the hand though. Does this mean that it wasn't ever used? Not at all. We can only ask ourselves what is most likely based on practicality and what we know of these keris and the fighting styles that exist today.
Alan, you wrote: "I would suggest that a master of the keris, from the distant past, would not have limited himself to any single grip of his weapon, but would have possessed the virtuosity to adapt the grip to the circumstances." This may well be so, but if one is to fix a hilt in one position for battle, which would it be? This is not so much a problem with an upright hilt style, but with these angled hilts it is a different story. While i do find that the "ice pick" grip is workable with the hilt in a reverse position, it seems near impossible with the hilt in what has been assumed to be the "normal" position. Try it and see for yourself. The master might have the virtuosity to adapt the grip to different circumstances, but he would not be able to change the positions of a fixed hilt in the heat of battle if those circumstances changed.

fearn · 23rd November 2008, 06:35 AM

Hi Jussi,

Thanks for checking with this keris. We all seem to agree that it should be held in a forward (rapier, sword) grip.

Thanks for checking. Just to make sure I'm not getting too confused, did you check a keris with a reversed hilt, or a normal hilt?

Hi Alan,

I'm not disagreeing with the notion the keris in general are designed to be held point forward. I've read Draeger and Stone as well, and to me, this was obvious.

My concern in this case is that we have a keris with the hilt mounted "wrong," and one hypothesis to check is that some creative Bugi mounted the hilt differently that way so that it could be held in a different (icepick) grip. This can be tested simply by holding a keris with a reversed hilt. If it's still more awkward in reverse, then the hypothesis is disproved.

Best,

F

A. G. Maisey · 23rd November 2008, 07:53 AM

I'm sorry gentlemen, I moved away from consideration of the keris that began this thread long ago.

To me, the question in respect of this specific keris of Freddy's cannot be settled:- we know too little about it; anything is possible. I'm just not prepared to hypothesise in respect of something that we don't have enough evidence for.I believe I corrected my initial spontaneity in post #20.

What we do know is that keris of this type did on occasion have their hilts mounted in this reverse position.

Did this specific keris of Freddy's have its hilt mounted in reverse position by a past owner indigenous to place of origin of this keris?

I most sincerely doubt if any amongst us can answer that question.

My most recent posts have most definitely been in respect of the keris in general.

In so far as adapability of the Bugis style hilt to both rapier style and icepick style grip. With the hilt in a position where it extends above the gandik, an ice-pick grip is not only possible, but is distinctly comfortable and feels "right", to use this grip with the hilt in this position, the blade is reversed so that the side of the hand rests on the long part of the gonjo.

With a hilt in the reverse position, again, both method of grip is possible.

Personally, I don't think that it would have mattered a great deal how the hilt was fixed:- each person would have fixed it as suited himself, and used it according to his own style. Possibly an ordinary farmer or seaman could have gone through his life without ever drawing blood with his keris, and he probably had only a vague idea of how to use it, on the other hand the professional enforcer, or pirate, or standover man, or bandit, or other frequent user of violence would have had a bag of tricks that allowed him to use any one of a number of grips, as the circumstances demanded.

Many years ago I had the good fortune to be taught just a little of the way in which a professional assassin thinks and works. The principal philosophy of my teacher was that one never exposes onself to risk. One waits until the opportunity presents itself and then does the job. This man was Chinese-Javanese and he was not a user of a keris, but a user of knife. Bearing in mind the principles of Malay and Javanese warfare and personal combat, I doubt that the philosophy of experienced users of the keris in times past would have varied much from those of my teacher. If this is so, it is only reasonable that the professional would not limit his ability to earn his pay by limiting himself to a single method of use of his tools of trade.

It seems that once again I have wandered away from discussion of Freddy's keris. Whatever anybody wishes to propose in respect of that particular keris, I agree with.

However, in respect of the keris in general and its methods of use in historical times, I suggest that although we cannot know anything about these with any certainty, a prudent user would have had flexibility of style.I think that the only thing I cannot agree with is that there might have been a rigid "one style suits all" approach, universally adopted by all users.

Jussi M. · 23rd November 2008, 10:53 AM

Greetings,

I know nothing about these things but did found this on the internet.

Short video: One Dutch-Indo´s training footage from the 1970´s

Thanks,

J

Jussi M. · 23rd November 2008, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jussi, correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I read your posts is that you are saying pretty much the same thing that I'm saying, that is:- we do not know exactly how the keris was used in the past, however, there is more than one possible way in which it could have been used.

My thoughts exactly Mr. Maisey.

Thanks,

J

David · 23rd November 2008, 08:01 PM

Well Jussi, Victor and his family have quite the reputation in silat circles AFAIK

, so it is obvious that at least some silat teacher is using this "reverse" hilt position and alternative grips in their art. His grip(s) do(es) look a little different from the "ice pick" grip we have been discussing though. That grip i still don't find comfortable in either position, but Alan does so i guess it is fairly subjective. To each their own. Live and let live.

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23rd November 2008, 04:02 AM	#1
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Jussi, The relief carving showed an ancient blade which may or may not be the predecessor of the keris. Also, we do not know how the ancients used the earliest kerises, but staying in the here and now, we do see silat groups (i.e. Malay/Indon martial arts schools) which demonstrate the use of kerises as we know today. I'm in Singapore, somewhere in the heart of Southeast Asia, home to the keris, and I'm fortunate to see some of such silat demonstrations in person. Some of my Malay friends are actual silat practioners or are good enough to be in a position to instruct in silat. I tried searching for a youtube video on how the Malay/Bugis keris is used, and I think the following is a good example to show how kerises are used now, and by extension, the likely position the hilt would have assumed for the purpose of fighting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDFgG_LhKlg

23rd November 2008, 04:52 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Kai Wee I agree that the relief carving from Candi Panataran, that Jussi has chosen to illustrate his point, is perhaps not the best for this purpose. In spite of the fact that reproductions of this relief have been published many times in Indonesia to illustrate the historicity of the keris, in fact, it lacks some of the features that we would normally like to associate with the keris, including the archaic proto types of the keris. This deficiency has never seemed to worry those Indonesian publishers though:- they simply altered the published images so that the missing gandik was magically included, and the blade became assymetric. There are other representations of proto keris at Panataran, but I believe it is perhaps better to use one of the representations from Prambanan. This representation inarguably has the assymetric blade and gandik of the modern keris, and it dates from an earlier time than Panataran. I have studied these carvings at first hand, under magnification, and over a period of years. I have obtained verification from Indonesian archeological officials as to the original state of the Prambanan carving shown here, and I have confirmed this verification by my own examination under magnification. The image shown here from Prambanan is original, undamaged, and unaltered, and it shows a keris-like dagger which possesses many of the features of the modern keris. It also shows the way in which these daggers were used. Jussi, correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I read your posts is that you are saying pretty much the same thing that I'm saying, that is:- we do not know exactly how the keris was used in the past, however, there is more than one possible way in which it could have been used. Attached Images Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 23rd November 2008 at 11:36 AM.

23rd November 2008, 06:31 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	For me it is not a question as to whether the keris or even the proto-keris were or could be used in an overhand stabbing action. What we are talking about is the keris at hand in this thread. All of the proto-keris in these reliefs have an upright handle as far as i know. The angled handle presented in this thread and common to the other bugis keris that we are discussing with "reversed" hilts presents a completely different challenge if we consider using the "ice pick" grip for an overhand stab. I think that both Alan and Jussi are absolutely correct. We will never know exactly how the keris and proto-keris were used in the past and certainly more than one grip is a possibility. But i think the question in this thread must remain specific to this type of angled hilt, not the upright hilts of the proto-keris or other upright hilts common to other keris. What i am suggesting is that everyone who has such a keris at hand try these various grips with the hilt in these different positions.. How does it feel? Which grip feels "right" to you? For me the "ice pick" grip with the "reversed" hilt is just a bit awkward, though it is usable. It feels uncomfortable in the hand though. Does this mean that it wasn't ever used? Not at all. We can only ask ourselves what is most likely based on practicality and what we know of these keris and the fighting styles that exist today. Alan, you wrote: "I would suggest that a master of the keris, from the distant past, would not have limited himself to any single grip of his weapon, but would have possessed the virtuosity to adapt the grip to the circumstances." This may well be so, but if one is to fix a hilt in one position for battle, which would it be? This is not so much a problem with an upright hilt style, but with these angled hilts it is a different story. While i do find that the "ice pick" grip is workable with the hilt in a reverse position, it seems near impossible with the hilt in what has been assumed to be the "normal" position. Try it and see for yourself. The master might have the virtuosity to adapt the grip to different circumstances, but he would not be able to change the positions of a fixed hilt in the heat of battle if those circumstances changed.

23rd November 2008, 06:35 AM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Jussi, Thanks for checking with this keris. We all seem to agree that it should be held in a forward (rapier, sword) grip. Thanks for checking. Just to make sure I'm not getting too confused, did you check a keris with a reversed hilt, or a normal hilt? Hi Alan, I'm not disagreeing with the notion the keris in general are designed to be held point forward. I've read Draeger and Stone as well, and to me, this was obvious. My concern in this case is that we have a keris with the hilt mounted "wrong," and one hypothesis to check is that some creative Bugi mounted the hilt differently that way so that it could be held in a different (icepick) grip. This can be tested simply by holding a keris with a reversed hilt. If it's still more awkward in reverse, then the hypothesis is disproved. Best, F

23rd November 2008, 07:53 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	I'm sorry gentlemen, I moved away from consideration of the keris that began this thread long ago. To me, the question in respect of this specific keris of Freddy's cannot be settled:- we know too little about it; anything is possible. I'm just not prepared to hypothesise in respect of something that we don't have enough evidence for.I believe I corrected my initial spontaneity in post #20. What we do know is that keris of this type did on occasion have their hilts mounted in this reverse position. Did this specific keris of Freddy's have its hilt mounted in reverse position by a past owner indigenous to place of origin of this keris? I most sincerely doubt if any amongst us can answer that question. My most recent posts have most definitely been in respect of the keris in general. In so far as adapability of the Bugis style hilt to both rapier style and icepick style grip. With the hilt in a position where it extends above the gandik, an ice-pick grip is not only possible, but is distinctly comfortable and feels "right", to use this grip with the hilt in this position, the blade is reversed so that the side of the hand rests on the long part of the gonjo. With a hilt in the reverse position, again, both method of grip is possible. Personally, I don't think that it would have mattered a great deal how the hilt was fixed:- each person would have fixed it as suited himself, and used it according to his own style. Possibly an ordinary farmer or seaman could have gone through his life without ever drawing blood with his keris, and he probably had only a vague idea of how to use it, on the other hand the professional enforcer, or pirate, or standover man, or bandit, or other frequent user of violence would have had a bag of tricks that allowed him to use any one of a number of grips, as the circumstances demanded. Many years ago I had the good fortune to be taught just a little of the way in which a professional assassin thinks and works. The principal philosophy of my teacher was that one never exposes onself to risk. One waits until the opportunity presents itself and then does the job. This man was Chinese-Javanese and he was not a user of a keris, but a user of knife. Bearing in mind the principles of Malay and Javanese warfare and personal combat, I doubt that the philosophy of experienced users of the keris in times past would have varied much from those of my teacher. If this is so, it is only reasonable that the professional would not limit his ability to earn his pay by limiting himself to a single method of use of his tools of trade. It seems that once again I have wandered away from discussion of Freddy's keris. Whatever anybody wishes to propose in respect of that particular keris, I agree with. However, in respect of the keris in general and its methods of use in historical times, I suggest that although we cannot know anything about these with any certainty, a prudent user would have had flexibility of style.I think that the only thing I cannot agree with is that there might have been a rigid "one style suits all" approach, universally adopted by all users.

23rd November 2008, 10:53 AM	#6
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Greetings, I know nothing about these things but did found this on the internet. Short video: One Dutch-Indo´s training footage from the 1970´s Thanks, J

23rd November 2008, 08:01 PM	#8
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Well Jussi, Victor and his family have quite the reputation in silat circles AFAIK , so it is obvious that at least some silat teacher is using this "reverse" hilt position and alternative grips in their art. His grip(s) do(es) look a little different from the "ice pick" grip we have been discussing though. That grip i still don't find comfortable in either position, but Alan does so i guess it is fairly subjective. To each their own. Live and let live.