Voodoo doll

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by David

Thanks for the link Ben. Unfortunately my understanding here is limited since i do not speak Dutch. However, i seriously doubt that i need to take a trip to The Netherlands to get a better understanding of Vodou. I have been studying this religion and it's drum rhythms for more than 20 years now and have actually participated in ceremonies as a ritual drummer.
What picture of dolls in this exhibit do you believe is a "Voodoo doll" meant to gain control over another human being? I do see some ancestor effigies in the mix. Yes, there are objects in the practice that you might refer to as dolls, but i do not think you fully understand what their use and purpose are.

I do David but there is maybe more than you know some people are in some thing for 30 years and can learn from other .


Take my word there are voodoo puppets or dolls on the black side off the voodoo for sure maybe you only know the white side.

Ben

[stekemest]

Freddy,
Thank you very much.

[David]

Originally Posted by Dajak

I do David but there is maybe more than you know some people are in some thing for 30 years and can learn from other .


Take my word there are voodoo puppets or dolls on the black side off the voodoo for sure maybe you only know the white side.

Ben

Yes Ben, we all can always learn something new.
There is no "black" or "white" side of Vodou. There is just Vodou. Those who practice black magic in Haiti are referred to as bokkor. These are not priests of the Lwa. They may surround themselves with many of the same trappings as Vodou, but what they practice is the furthest thing from it.

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by David

Yes Ben, we all can always learn something new.
There is no "black" or "white" side of Vodou. There is just Vodou. Those who practice black magic in Haiti are referred to as bokkor. These are not priests of the Lwa. They may surround themselves with many of the same trappings as Vodou, but what they practice is the furthest thing from it.

Hi David maybe not black voodoo in Haiti but it is not where the voodoo come from,
in Afrika a lot off black voodoo .

Ben

[Bill M]

There are plenty of "voodoo dolls" on eBay

If you want to know more about the religion, I strongly suggest Maya Deren's wonderful book, "The Divine Horsemen, The Living Gods of Haiti." Check it out on Google.

[David]

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi David maybe not black voodoo in Haiti but it is not where the voodoo come from,
in Afrika a lot off black voodoo .

Ben

Ben, you are missing a key distinction in this discussion, that is between the religion that is Vodoun, and the black magick that might take place within the cultures that this religion exists. One of the main purposes of the Vodoun priest, whether in Haiti or Benin, is to protect his people from the black magick that is done within the community. This black magick is not Vodou. It is done outside of the religion. To say it is would be akin to saying that a pederast Catholic priest who is buggering an altar boy in the vestry after hours is somehow practicing Catholicism.
I am not arguing that sticking pins into an effigy doll to cause distress to another is not a perfectly viable and even effect form of black magick. I am not arguing that this isn't an age old practice which can be found around the world including Western European folk magic. What i am arguing is that such dolls should never be referred to as "Voodoo dolls". IMO Vodoun is one of the worlds great religions. To me, and the many friends and teachers that i have who are Vodoun initiates this is highly offensive.

[Dajak]

Originally Posted by David

Ben, you are missing a key distinction in this discussion, that is between the religion that is Vodoun, and the black magick that might take place within the cultures that this religion exists. One of the main purposes of the Vodoun priest, whether in Haiti or Benin, is to protect his people from the black magick that is done within the community. This black magick is not Vodou. It is done outside of the religion. To say it is would be akin to saying that a pederast Catholic priest who is buggering an altar boy in the vestry after hours is somehow practicing Catholicism.
I am not arguing that sticking pins into an effigy doll to cause distress to another is not a perfectly viable and even effect form of black magick. I am not arguing that this isn't an age old practice which can be found around the world including Western European folk magic. What i am arguing is that such dolls should never be referred to as "Voodoo dolls". IMO Vodoun is one of the worlds great religions. To me, and the many friends and teachers that i have who are Vodoun initiates this is highly offensive.

Hi david it looks to me that you missing a point .

Is there an voodoo dol or not .


Ben

[David]

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi david it looks to me that you missing a point .

Is there an voodoo dol or not .

Obviously Ben we are having a problem communicating here. I am trying to be patient because i realize that English is not your first language, so i will try again.
Is there a tradition within the Vodoun religion of making effigy dolls of your enemies and sticking pins into them to cause them harm. Absolutely not! This goes for both African and Haitian Vodou. Do people do this outside of the tradition of Vodou? Probably. Are they practicing Vodou when they do it? Absolutely not. They are practicing black magic which is not a part of the Vodoun religion. Vodoun is not a religion which advocates doing harm to others. To call these "Voodoo dolls" casts aspersions onto the entire religion that is Voudoun. It is offensive.
Are there doll figures and small statues used in the practice of Vodoun? Yes. Are they called "Voodoo dolls"? No. There is far too much baggage with that term and to call them such would only cause confusion. Are these dolls used to harm others? No, they are used for protection and spiritual growth.
Is it clearer for you now?

[stekemest]

Glad I asked the question here, it's an interesting discussion. Thanks also from my friend, he found a figure, a "Bochio" oder "Bocio" (they seem to be called Bochio in German) from the Fon in Benin. Is it normal that such figures cost several hundreds of euros?