A cup hilted sword rapier for coments

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi Gonzalo,

I meant that as a sincere compliment and in the very best sense of the word (detective) as one who detects or investigates. I very much admire your systematic and comprehensive approach to hoplology, which sets an example to all of us - After all, providing that link to that sword, if I may say so, was akin to finding a needle in the proverbial haystack.Again, it is held by some that `rapier' was derived from the Spanish `espada ropera' (dress sword). The problem with this interpretation is that we are told that during the halcyon days of the rapier in Spain it was not used and in any event the expression `espada ropera' was already evident by the mid 1400s, well before the rapier made its appearance. The Spanish renaissance linguists that I consulted confirmed that this is probably right; So, to uphold this origin of `rapier', it is incumbent on those who propose it, to come forth with some period fencing manual, in which the expression is used as such.

Now, the reason that I made that reference to the can of worms is because over the years many, including curators, wrongly come to identify the rapier with its complex hilt, rather than function, which was determined by the blade and hilt, and such hilts were also fitted to the better military broadswords of that era.

Chris

Chris, I understood your meaning. What I tried to say, is that it was not as hard to find this reference, because I already had it and studied it. It was easy to remember, and there were no need to search for it. What it is VERY difficult to remember, is where are my car keys. I thank you for your compliment, but my merit is very small.

I have an objection to the use of the expression "thrusting sword", because the ropera was a sword which sometimes was used to cut. There are some atacks in spanish style fencing with the use of the edge of the ropera, althought it is mainly a thrusting weapon. Marc can say much more than I about spanish fencing.

Yes, the term "ropera" appear for the first time in an inventory of the belongings from the Duke Alvaro de Zúñiga in 1468, according with the article "La Espada Ropera Española en los Siglos XVI y XVII" by José María Pelaez Valle in Gladius (pag. 147). In french, the first reference is from 1474.

Neverthless, we must clarify an important point. The term is referred not only to the late slender blade made to thrust, with a cup hilt guard. The ropera has evolved form a more broaded sword made also to cut in the the 15th Century. You know, many complex weapons do not just appear already defined in their ultimate characterisitics, unless adopted or imposed from other cultures. Since Spain is the original source of the espada ropera, it´s evolution began there, and it took some time and several transformations.

It is very difficult, at the sight of the early and very late roperas, when it began or ended to be a ropera. Even the classic model had important diferences on the guard, as it evolved from the lasso to the cup hilt with very long quillons, apart from national and period variations. We can´t say, without being reductionists, that the ropera or rapieris are only one of these models, overlooking the historical changes. Concepts are only structures created to help us understand reality, and we must use them in a flexible manner. "Epee" in french, means only sword, and it is not aplied only to the classic model designated as such. The same apply to words as shamshir, saif and kiliç, which only means "sword", and do not designate the conceptual models created by the occidental scholars and collectionists, IMHO.

I agree with you, Chris, when you mention the can of worms. It is a real problem to make distinctions, in many cases. Some criteria must be established, but history must be taken on account. It is not an abstract excercise of logics. And thank you for your reference to the HEMA.
Regards

Gonzalo