A Kampillan...But Moro??? - Page 2

VVV · 19th August 2007, 11:47 AM

Hi Ben,

Thanks for your response and I agree with a lot of it, but not all.
Maybe we should focus on one question at the time.

Have you found any evidence of that there ever existed a dayak tribe called the Sun in North Borneo,
unless it's another name for the Dusun?

Michael

Dajak · 19th August 2007, 01:02 PM

It could be that they live in an area where the sunbear was seen but I will search.

I found it you are right the Sundajak also now by the name off Dusun so Dr Sonne who lived a long time with these people at the Marudubai .
So no reason to doubt what Hein tells about these weapons.
read hein 348.

He also write that some off these piece s where found at market s in Madrid
in 1892

So Sundajak as name is right .

ben

VVV · 19th August 2007, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

...I found it you are right the Sundajak also now by the name off Dusun so Dr Sonne who lived a long time with these people at the Marudubai...
ben

Thanks Ben,

Then that part is cleared.
I have also found that in some old sources, like Rutter, they don't differentiate between the Dusun and the Bajau & Illanun.
They just divide the original inhabitants of North Borneo as either Murut and then the rest is called Dusun.
I assume Dr Sonne belonged to that school based on the title of his work?
Marudubai is Marudu Bay so he lived among the coastal tribes which had contact with the Philippines.

It's also interesting that Hein/Sonne, if I understand his German correct, also had the opinion that the Kampilan is an imported sword from the Illanuns with origin in the Philippines.

Btw, very nice old Kampilan you added to your post.

Michael

Dajak · 19th August 2007, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Thanks Ben,

Then that part is cleared.
I have also found that in some old sources, like Rutter, they don't differentiate between the Dusun and the Bajau & Illanun.
They just divide the original inhabitants of North Borneo as either Murut and then the rest is called Dusun.
I assume Dr Sonne belonged to that school based on the title of his work?
Marudubai is Marudu Bay so he lived among the coastal tribes which had contact with the Philippines.

It's also interesting that Hein/Sonne, if I understand his German correct, also had the opinion that the Kampilan is an imported sword from the Illanuns with origin in the Philippines.

Btw, very nice old Kampilan you added to your post.

Michael

Hi Michael

Yes you correct that he tells the kampilan is imported from the Illannus .

Sonne must live the in the late 1800 in the North part so I gonna try to get his book maybe more good information in it .

Ben

VVV · 19th August 2007, 09:06 PM

Hi Ben,

That sounds interesting.
Please share what you find when you have read it.

Michael

VANDOO · 30th October 2008, 06:00 AM

I AM NOT IN THE SAME LEAGUE AS YOU GUYS AS FAR AS KNOWLEGE OF THESE THINGS.

BUT IT SEEMS TO ME A GOOD PALCE TO LOOK FOR FURTHER INFORMATION MIGHT BE ANTHROPOLIGICAL STUDIES. DUE TO THE STUDIES DONE ON THE POLYNESIANS THEY HAVE TRACKED THEIR MOVEMENTS FROM PLACE TO PLACE AND THRU TIME. IF STUDIES HAVE BEEN DONE IN YOUR AREA OF THE WORLD IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE TO TRACK SEVERAL WAVES OF MIGRATION TO AND FROM PLACES AND PERHAPS THRU LUCK AND ARTEFACTS PIECE TOGETHER A POSSIBLE ORIGIN FOR KAMPILIAN TYPE WEAPONS AS WELL AS OTHERS. YOU WOULD ONLY HAVE TO LOOK AS FAR BACK IN TIME AS TO WHEN IRON AND THE TECKNOLOGY TO WORK IT AS WELL AS WHEN TRADERS FROM MORE ADVANCED SOCIETYS CAME INTO THE AREA.
CHOPPER TYPE BLADES WERE AROUND VERY EARLY IN CHINA AND INDIA AND THEY WERE SEA FARING TRADERS. THEY MAY HAVE ESTABLISHED TRADE IN BORNEO AND THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE ANY OTHERS OR ONE OF THE WAVES OF IMIGRATION MAY HAVE BROUGHT THE FORM IN.
AS TO WHY ONE TRIBE MIGHT BE IGNORED OR LEFT OUT OF A REFRENCE WORK,
1.TIME AND MONEY IS GENERALLY VERY LIMITED.
2. IF YOU ARE SEEN AS A FRIEND OF AN ENEMY TRIBE YOU WILL NOT BE WELCOME.
3. PERHAPS ANOTHER TRIP TO COVER WHAT WAS MISSED THE FIRST TIME WAS PLANNED BUT FOR LIFE'S MANY REASONS WAS NEVER DONE.
4. YOU RELY ON REFRENCES WHICH MAY BE IN ANOTHER LANGUAGE AND INTERPRET TRIBAL NAMES WRONG, OR THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR OF THE REFRENCE MISUNDERSTOOD WHAT HE WAS TOLD AND GOT IT WRONG.
MISTAKES ARE MADE, THINGS ARE OMITTED IN ALL REFRENCES.

WE JUST HAVE TO DO THE BEST WE CAN WITH THE REFRENCES THAT ARE AVAILABLE AND IN A LANGUAGE WE CAN READ

VVV · 25th January 2011, 10:50 AM

I just found this very interesting documentary that sheds some more light on the Illanun tribe and why you find kampilan etc. also on Borneo.
It has Swedish subtitles but it's recorded in English:

http://www.ur.se/play/161129

Unfortunately they obviously didn't employ any weapon experts but still nice to see the Kalis, Barong and Kampilan presented on TV as well as them being used in action.

Happy watching for all Moro collectors!

Michael

VVV · 25th January 2011, 11:00 AM

Here is a bonus reference btw, a kampilan with twist core.

Michael

Battara · 25th January 2011, 07:50 PM

Thanks Michael, what a nice piece. Not often that one sees twistcore on a kampilan let alone a Moro piece.

Maurice · 25th January 2011, 08:35 PM

Incredible piece with that double twistcore and dark hardened etch Michael! This certain is a top piece.
The pommel style is also one of my favorites.

Kind Regards,
Maurice

tunggulametung · 29th January 2011, 07:51 PM

In case this is not known already to some readers, lanun in modern Malay/Indonesian is synonymous to perompak/bajak laut = pirate.

Maurice · 13th April 2011, 01:08 AM

I was just reading some interesing old Dutch articles (written in 1854 and one in 1869) of the pirates around Borneo and also about the inhabitans in the coastal area's of British north Borneo.

About the British North Borneo coastal area's the article is highlighting the following tribes: The "Ilanons or Lanons", the "Solokkers" (as the Dutch apperently named the people from Sulu), the "Badjo's" (they call themselves people of Sama: Orang Sama), and the "Idaans or Doesoens".
About the Bajo's the article is telling that they were very numerous, and were certainly no friends of the lesser numbers of Ilanons. But also with their large numbers, they feared the Ilanons and were not able to confront the fierce Ilanons.

Also I read about the arms of the Badjo's.
They were armed with a lance, a shield and a sword.
Does anybody know what sword they carried? A kampilan?

Thanks in advance,
Maurice

19th August 2007, 01:02 PM	#32
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	It could be that they live in an area where the sunbear was seen but I will search. I found it you are right the Sundajak also now by the name off Dusun so Dr Sonne who lived a long time with these people at the Marudubai . So no reason to doubt what Hein tells about these weapons. read hein 348. He also write that some off these piece s where found at market s in Madrid in 1892 So Sundajak as name is right . ben Last edited by Dajak; 19th August 2007 at 01:16 PM.

25th January 2011, 10:50 AM	#37
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Raiders of the Sulu Sea - Documentary I just found this very interesting documentary that sheds some more light on the Illanun tribe and why you find kampilan etc. also on Borneo. It has Swedish subtitles but it's recorded in English: http://www.ur.se/play/161129 Unfortunately they obviously didn't employ any weapon experts but still nice to see the Kalis, Barong and Kampilan presented on TV as well as them being used in action. Happy watching for all Moro collectors! Michael

25th January 2011, 11:00 AM	#38
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Here is a bonus reference btw, a kampilan with twist core. Michael Attached Images

13th April 2011, 01:08 AM	#42
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,346	I was just reading some interesing old Dutch articles (written in 1854 and one in 1869) of the pirates around Borneo and also about the inhabitans in the coastal area's of British north Borneo. About the British North Borneo coastal area's the article is highlighting the following tribes: The "Ilanons or Lanons", the "Solokkers" (as the Dutch apperently named the people from Sulu), the "Badjo's" (they call themselves people of Sama: Orang Sama), and the "Idaans or Doesoens". About the Bajo's the article is telling that they were very numerous, and were certainly no friends of the lesser numbers of Ilanons. But also with their large numbers, they feared the Ilanons and were not able to confront the fierce Ilanons. Also I read about the arms of the Badjo's. They were armed with a lance, a shield and a sword. Does anybody know what sword they carried? A kampilan? Thanks in advance, Maurice Last edited by Maurice; 13th April 2011 at 02:14 AM.

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19th August 2007, 11:47 AM	#31
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Ben, Thanks for your response and I agree with a lot of it, but not all. Maybe we should focus on one question at the time. Have you found any evidence of that there ever existed a dayak tribe called the Sun in North Borneo, unless it's another name for the Dusun? Michael

19th August 2007, 09:06 PM	#35
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Ben, That sounds interesting. Please share what you find when you have read it. Michael

30th October 2008, 06:00 AM	#36
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AM NOT IN THE SAME LEAGUE AS YOU GUYS AS FAR AS KNOWLEGE OF THESE THINGS. BUT IT SEEMS TO ME A GOOD PALCE TO LOOK FOR FURTHER INFORMATION MIGHT BE ANTHROPOLIGICAL STUDIES. DUE TO THE STUDIES DONE ON THE POLYNESIANS THEY HAVE TRACKED THEIR MOVEMENTS FROM PLACE TO PLACE AND THRU TIME. IF STUDIES HAVE BEEN DONE IN YOUR AREA OF THE WORLD IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE TO TRACK SEVERAL WAVES OF MIGRATION TO AND FROM PLACES AND PERHAPS THRU LUCK AND ARTEFACTS PIECE TOGETHER A POSSIBLE ORIGIN FOR KAMPILIAN TYPE WEAPONS AS WELL AS OTHERS. YOU WOULD ONLY HAVE TO LOOK AS FAR BACK IN TIME AS TO WHEN IRON AND THE TECKNOLOGY TO WORK IT AS WELL AS WHEN TRADERS FROM MORE ADVANCED SOCIETYS CAME INTO THE AREA. CHOPPER TYPE BLADES WERE AROUND VERY EARLY IN CHINA AND INDIA AND THEY WERE SEA FARING TRADERS. THEY MAY HAVE ESTABLISHED TRADE IN BORNEO AND THE PHILIPPINES BEFORE ANY OTHERS OR ONE OF THE WAVES OF IMIGRATION MAY HAVE BROUGHT THE FORM IN. AS TO WHY ONE TRIBE MIGHT BE IGNORED OR LEFT OUT OF A REFRENCE WORK, 1.TIME AND MONEY IS GENERALLY VERY LIMITED. 2. IF YOU ARE SEEN AS A FRIEND OF AN ENEMY TRIBE YOU WILL NOT BE WELCOME. 3. PERHAPS ANOTHER TRIP TO COVER WHAT WAS MISSED THE FIRST TIME WAS PLANNED BUT FOR LIFE'S MANY REASONS WAS NEVER DONE. 4. YOU RELY ON REFRENCES WHICH MAY BE IN ANOTHER LANGUAGE AND INTERPRET TRIBAL NAMES WRONG, OR THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR OF THE REFRENCE MISUNDERSTOOD WHAT HE WAS TOLD AND GOT IT WRONG. MISTAKES ARE MADE, THINGS ARE OMITTED IN ALL REFRENCES. WE JUST HAVE TO DO THE BEST WE CAN WITH THE REFRENCES THAT ARE AVAILABLE AND IN A LANGUAGE WE CAN READ

25th January 2011, 07:50 PM	#39
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	Thanks Michael, what a nice piece. Not often that one sees twistcore on a kampilan let alone a Moro piece.

25th January 2011, 08:35 PM	#40
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,346	Incredible piece with that double twistcore and dark hardened etch Michael! This certain is a top piece. The pommel style is also one of my favorites. Kind Regards, Maurice

29th January 2011, 07:51 PM	#41
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	In case this is not known already to some readers, lanun in modern Malay/Indonesian is synonymous to perompak/bajak laut = pirate.