ZIZ ZAG Wootz Ladder Pattern (Part II)

ALEX · 28th September 2008, 02:32 AM

We had a nice discussion about Zig Zag pattern in this post
And I'd like to present the following: courtesy of www.asianarms.com,
and Tony Paul has graceously agreed to display this kard on the forum for discussion (Thanks Tony):
One side of the blade displays a zig zag ladder, while the other has 3 "crosses" (crossed ladders).. see the close-up of one "cross". It also appears as 2 "rozes" are present on both sides of the "cross".
Unlike the shamshir in the first post, the ladder formations on this kard appear "original". It does not have a prominent 3-D effect, and not easy to spot at first. I think it's safe to say that no angle grinder was used on this blade

To the best of my knowledge, the zig zag pattern is at least known and documented, but the "cross" pattern is not. Would it be considered another variation of Kirk-Narduban? Or should we write to WTC (Wootz Trade Commission) requesting a new wootz classification. How about Cross-Narduban

rand · 28th September 2008, 04:57 PM

Hi Alex,

Examples of the zig-zag pattern are few and far between. The zig zag is evident in the kard, especially if you allow for how the diameter gets larger nearer the hilt. Would guess there has been some wear to the blade and that may be why the pattern is not clearer or more precise.

The sword that I had with this pattern was wootz wrapped around an iron core as you could see where the iron was showing through because the wootz has simply worn away with use/cleaning/polishing over time.

For a true kirk pattern there should be multiples of 20 that can equal the forty steps, then it would be a variation of the Kirk ladder pattern. Otherwise I see it as an example of zig zag rungs. No matter which way it becomes perceived over time it is a scarch example.

Not sure I agree with the rose inclusian as the circles appear hap- hazard on the blade and are not consistant nor equally centered. Am in agreement with RSSword that the rungs are a mechanical effect on the wootz.

This kard is only the forth example of the zig zag that i have seen..... If had seen that shamshir on Ebay would have made a serious bid....

nice posting....

rand

ALEX · 28th September 2008, 05:24 PM

Thanks Rand,
I agree, the rozes do not look intentionally planted, and appear randomly formed on the blade. Thank you for your comments, the zig-zag pattern is rare indeed, but what marvelled me most is the "cross-ladder" pattern on only one side of the blade - an unknown (to me) pattern, and I guess the one which would be very hard to make.

rand · 28th September 2008, 07:27 PM

Hey Alex,

Manfred Sasche may have the best explanation for the making of transverse lines in metal in his book "Damascus Steel". Attached are a few photo's from his book showing possible techniques for producing a transverse line. they would be the same technique no matter what direction the line go's. Of course at the time of manufacture these were very closely guarded and valuable secrets.

rand

ALEX · 28th September 2008, 11:35 PM

Thanks Rand. It looks more complicated than I thought. Fiegel book, for example, shows much easier process - simply cutting the line with the chisel, but he mentioned press and dies as well.
I understand now that the technique would be the same for producing any lines, vertical, angled, etc, however only vertical lines (Kirk) pattern was used almost exclusively. I am sure it's because of "40 steps", i.e. ladder concept. Can we assume that zig-zag, cross, etc variations were made as experiment, decoration, etc, hence are not associated with the "Kirk" pattern?

rand · 29th September 2008, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Thanks Rand. It looks more complicated than I thought. Fiegel book, for example, shows much easier process - simply cutting the line with the chisel, but he mentioned press and dies as well.
I understand now that the technique would be the same for producing any lines, vertical, angled, etc, however only vertical lines (Kirk) pattern was used almost exclusively. I am sure it's because of "40 steps", i.e. ladder concept. Can we assume that zig-zag, cross, etc variations were made as experiment, decoration, etc, hence are not associated with the "Kirk" pattern?

Hey Alex,

My opinion is any multiple of twenty would be associated with the kirk-nar-daban or ladder pattern. Other than that would call them rungs or in the style of a ladder pattern.

rand

ward · 29th September 2008, 08:48 PM

Great dagger Alex.
Kirk Narduban is a miss spelling from Turkish Kirk Merdeven Forty Steps I think its in the Pinchot shamshir article. Ive seen just as many sword blades that have 40 steps as others that dont but never seen less than 20. On a dagger theres less space I dont think it matters so long as steps are clear and equally spaced. Anybody wants to sell a ladder blade because it has less than 40 steps lmk.

Richard Furrer · 1st October 2008, 01:46 AM

Cutting the ingot and opening up like in the photo will NOT produce any rungs...it is a perpetuated myth and a lot of extra work for no benefit.

Ric

28th September 2008, 02:32 AM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	ZIZ ZAG Wootz Ladder Pattern (Part II) We had a nice discussion about Zig Zag pattern in this post And I'd like to present the following: courtesy of www.asianarms.com, and Tony Paul has graceously agreed to display this kard on the forum for discussion (Thanks Tony): One side of the blade displays a zig zag ladder, while the other has 3 "crosses" (crossed ladders).. see the close-up of one "cross". It also appears as 2 "rozes" are present on both sides of the "cross". Unlike the shamshir in the first post, the ladder formations on this kard appear "original". It does not have a prominent 3-D effect, and not easy to spot at first. I think it's safe to say that no angle grinder was used on this blade To the best of my knowledge, the zig zag pattern is at least known and documented, but the "cross" pattern is not. Would it be considered another variation of Kirk-Narduban? Or should we write to WTC (Wootz Trade Commission) requesting a new wootz classification. How about Cross-Narduban Attached Images

28th September 2008, 04:57 PM	#2
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Zig Zag Pattern Hi Alex, Examples of the zig-zag pattern are few and far between. The zig zag is evident in the kard, especially if you allow for how the diameter gets larger nearer the hilt. Would guess there has been some wear to the blade and that may be why the pattern is not clearer or more precise. The sword that I had with this pattern was wootz wrapped around an iron core as you could see where the iron was showing through because the wootz has simply worn away with use/cleaning/polishing over time. For a true kirk pattern there should be multiples of 20 that can equal the forty steps, then it would be a variation of the Kirk ladder pattern. Otherwise I see it as an example of zig zag rungs. No matter which way it becomes perceived over time it is a scarch example. Not sure I agree with the rose inclusian as the circles appear hap- hazard on the blade and are not consistant nor equally centered. Am in agreement with RSSword that the rungs are a mechanical effect on the wootz. This kard is only the forth example of the zig zag that i have seen..... If had seen that shamshir on Ebay would have made a serious bid.... nice posting.... rand

28th September 2008, 07:27 PM	#4
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Transverse Lines in Wootz Hey Alex, Manfred Sasche may have the best explanation for the making of transverse lines in metal in his book "Damascus Steel". Attached are a few photo's from his book showing possible techniques for producing a transverse line. they would be the same technique no matter what direction the line go's. Of course at the time of manufacture these were very closely guarded and valuable secrets. rand Attached Images

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28th September 2008, 05:24 PM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Thanks Rand, I agree, the rozes do not look intentionally planted, and appear randomly formed on the blade. Thank you for your comments, the zig-zag pattern is rare indeed, but what marvelled me most is the "cross-ladder" pattern on only one side of the blade - an unknown (to me) pattern, and I guess the one which would be very hard to make.

28th September 2008, 11:35 PM	#5
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Thanks Rand. It looks more complicated than I thought. Fiegel book, for example, shows much easier process - simply cutting the line with the chisel, but he mentioned press and dies as well. I understand now that the technique would be the same for producing any lines, vertical, angled, etc, however only vertical lines (Kirk) pattern was used almost exclusively. I am sure it's because of "40 steps", i.e. ladder concept. Can we assume that zig-zag, cross, etc variations were made as experiment, decoration, etc, hence are not associated with the "Kirk" pattern?

29th September 2008, 08:48 PM	#7
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Great dagger Alex. Kirk Narduban is a miss spelling from Turkish Kirk Merdeven Forty Steps I think its in the Pinchot shamshir article. Ive seen just as many sword blades that have 40 steps as others that dont but never seen less than 20. On a dagger theres less space I dont think it matters so long as steps are clear and equally spaced. Anybody wants to sell a ladder blade because it has less than 40 steps lmk.

1st October 2008, 01:46 AM	#8
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	Cutting the ingot and opening up like in the photo will NOT produce any rungs...it is a perpetuated myth and a lot of extra work for no benefit. Ric