Persian date opinion sought on khanjar

[rand]

Hey Gene,

Am in total agreement with you about culture flowing across countries. As example of use to help identify 15th-16th century Persian designs the comparison to Chinese art, especially cloud designs is on aspect of helping to date an object. Follow that up with dating the Chinese design by the known date progression of Chinese Ceramics and textiles and you have a valid way to conclude a date.

So in a sense there is never a study of one culture, but an accumulation of many as they interact.

This khanjar above, besides being an example of Persian art, tells a story of Persia's history by the influences of other cultures in its art. Even when you get to the design drawings based on mathematics this holds true. In this dagger you may be seeing the greatness of Persia's past coupled with its desire to be an equal of Europe. There certainly was great transitions from the Islamic towards the European style at this point in Persia.

The Zand dynasty known for cruelty when they blinded 20,000 men, then in later Qajar rule came Faht Ali Shah. During Faht Ali Shahs rule there was a great diplomatic increase as they were dealing with the aggression of Russia and updating the training and weapons of their army. Later there were diplomatic rivalries from European countries seeking control of Persia. There was also a splurge of art, maybe a natural phenomona for a society under pressure. There seems to be some comparison to the quality if Persian art during Faht Ali Shah and Shah Abbas, cannot explain this yet, but the detail and quality of lines in art is high during both periods in its metalwork.

rand

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by rand

Hey Gene,

Am in total agreement with you about culture flowing across countries. As example of use to help identify 15th-16th century Persian designs the comparison to Chinese art, especially cloud designs is on aspect of helping to date an object. Follow that up with dating the Chinese design by the known date progression of Chinese Ceramics and textiles and you have a valid way to conclude a date.

So in a sense there is never a study of one culture, but an accumulation of many as they interact.

This khanjar above, besides being an example of Persian art, tells a story of Persia's history by the influences of other cultures in its art. Even when you get to the design drawings based on mathematics this holds true. In this dagger you may be seeing the greatness of Persia's past coupled with its desire to be an equal of Europe. There certainly was great transitions from the Islamic towards the European style at this point in Persia.

The Zand dynasty known for cruelty when they blinded 20,000 men, then in later Qajar rule came Faht Ali Shah. During Faht Ali Shahs rule there was a great diplomatic increase as they were dealing with the aggression of Russia and updating the training and weapons of their army. Later there were diplomatic rivalries from European countries seeking control of Persia. There was also a splurge of art, maybe a natural phenomona for a society under pressure. There seems to be some comparison to the quality if Persian art during Faht Ali Shah and Shah Abbas, cannot explain this yet, but the detail and quality of lines in art is high during both periods in its metalwork.

rand

Hi Rand,

Its certainly an interesting area for research, have you seen this 'moustached' man represented on other weapons?
I've found a sim ilar image on a shield, but the picture is terrible.
Still, you can see the similarities.
Any thoughts?

[rand]

Hey Gene,

Cannot think of another example of a mustached figure being used like this example on a piece of Persian art. The shield may relate to the same figure as the Persian Devils head maces, believe there is some association to a coming of age for a Persian boy.

See that the figure on the shield also is mustached, but do not think they relate to each other. But do like the possiblity being pointed out, as theories need to hold up to all criticism to prove validity.

Maybe someone with more familiarity with Persion folklore could chime in here.

Another thought is hair styles popular in Persia, when did mustaches come into favor, when were they short, when were they long, that could be another clue for dating.

rand

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by rand

Hey Gene,

Cannot think of another example of a mustached figure being used like this example on a piece of Persian art. The shield may relate to the same figure as the Persian Devils head maces, believe there is some association to a coming of age for a Persian boy.

See that the figure on the shield also is mustached, but do not think they relate to each other. But do like the possiblity being pointed out, as theories need to hold up to all criticism to prove validity.

Maybe someone with more familiarity with Persion folklore could chime in here.

Another thought is hair styles popular in Persia, when did mustaches come into favor, when were they short, when were they long, that could be another clue for dating.

rand

LOL, well its funny you should say that, I was thinking of the classic image of teh 19th century asian/Indian gentleman with his large moustache. Is it possible that its just a reflection of fashion?

OR for that matter the British military types of the period too! Handlebar moustahes were somewhat a theme!

[rand]

Hi Gene,

My preliminary feeling is that the mustache is a style of the time, but more information could change that opinion. Certainly is a posibility of a desgn wanted by the artist. If a wide mustache was in style only during the 19th century, it would add more credence to the nuumber six being used in the date.

rand

[ward]

Talking about Zand dynasty Fath Ali Shah was worse read up on him al ittle courtiers were afraid to go near him he had a habit of knocking their teeth out with his hiheel shoe if he was in a bad mood then they were supposed to thank him afterward.
Beautiful piece but looks later than Zand to me more like Qajar lot of European influence in the motifs.

[rand]

Originally Posted by ward

Talking about Zand dynasty Fath Ali Shah was worse read up on him al ittle courtiers were afraid to go near him he had a habit of knocking their teeth out with his hiheel shoe if he was in a bad mood then they were supposed to thank him afterward.
Beautiful piece but looks later than Zand to me more like Qajar lot of European influence in the motifs.

Am in agreement with you about the dagger looking later than Zand Dynasty and that the European influence appears more of a 19th C. Qajar style, thats why am asking for opinions of what the date is on the handle.

At the same time am will to accept the date 1200 if that is what it is.

Thanks,
rand