Spanish Rapiers, a Bilbo FYC.

[Atlantia]

Jim is doing a great job on this forum, and I am happy to add to the discussion of European swords with this:

Here is my favourite sword, my Bilbo.
I bought it about 15 years ago, and at the time it cost more than the car I drove. It came from a reputable dealer who dated it at 1580, which I think may have been a bit 'enthusiastic' and I'd say it could be anything up to mid 17thC. It is 41 1/2 " long overall with a 35" blade (visible edge).
The blade is marked: .S A H A G V N. in pig-latin, I don't see any great reason to doubt the German origin, but either way, its a fine blade. The entire piece is darkly mottled, I know many would clean it up, but I kind of like it this way. The hilt is wrapped with silver wire.
The larger shell is engraved with a large flower (sunflower?)
The small shell is engraved with what seems to be a 'closed' flower.
It has some contemporary 'working' repairs done, nothing serious, the shell is held in place by four steel pins. It looks as though the sword took a hard blow on one of the quillions and bent it and loosened the shell. The quillion has been straightened and as you can see is not quite round in section any more, the steel pins have been tightened and onein particular has 'punch' marks around it. This working repair has left the quillions about 5 degrees off of the right angle. I must admit, I kind of like this, and the various little 'knicks' in the edge, this sword was clearly used. I just wish I could identify the iconography of the flower emblems and if they represented the man/family/organisation that it was made for.

I'd love to hear the members opionions on this sword. Please be kind, its my pride and joy ;-)


Pictures:

[Atlantia]

[Jim McDougall]

Atlantia, this piece is fantastic!! Actually when we talked and you spoke of a 'bilbo' I was thinking of an entirely different sword, those considered to be the M1728 (described in numerous works on Spanish weapons, with some dissent on the application of that model date, but military swords used into the 19th c.).
In checking "The Rapier and Small Sword" by the esteemed A.V.B.Norman (London, 1980, p.156) hilt #82 is very much like this sword, though the example has up and down turned quillons, and the pommel is quite different. Norman describes the example with wide range 1660-1795, leaving assessment of your example to the variation in elements.

The term 'bilbo' is often misleading and confusing, and though it is typically regarded as a Victorian collectors term probably derived from the term bilobate (which these asymmetrical shell guard swords are), it seems to have been applied to Spanish swords as early as Shakespeares time. In "Merry Wives of Windsor" the term 'bilbo' refers to a fine sword, however it is used in a metaphoric context.

I would consider this sword a 'bilobate' rapier, and it seems the faceted pommel has been described as mid 18th century I believe attributed to Royal Bodyguards in Spain, but cannot recall for sure the reference. The straight quillons recalling the familiar Spanish cuphilt of the 17th century, and seen on early 18th century swords of this type (also with the wire wrapped grip enclosed by four posts) that are likely associated with the M1728 military pattern, also bilobate with the four post grip.

The 'Sahagum' is of course a Solingen interpretation alluding to the Spanish smith, and as early as 1620's blades with this spurious application I believe were being sent to the Netherlands. I think this note was found in Norman as well, and with the Spanish presence there at the time this sounds very logical.

The scalloped guardopolvo is another possible Spanish feature in my opinion, as the striated clamshell is found often on the guards of Spanish edged weapons.

I'd really like to hear other opinions on this beautiful piece, but wanted to note my observations, which at this point would consider this a Spanish bilobate rapier, possibly an officers, and early 18th century. The clearly Solingen blade with that choice of trademark name may suggest this possibly has provenance to the Spanish Netherlands, and the faceted pommel may be a point of contention to dating the sword.

Thank you for posting this Atlantia, and I look forward to other views.

All the best,
Jim

[Atlantia]

Wow Jim,
Thanks for kicking this discussion off mate!
I'm still trying to absorb all the information and implications of what you've written!
Is it possible to scan and add some pics of the examples you mention? I can't picture that pattern, so when you talk about M1728 I can't help but think 'Isn't that a galaxy in the constellation Andromeda?' ;-)

Seriously though, I can see that this thread is clearly going to be a serious education for me. I'm not sure now what I'm hoping for when it comes to a definative ID on this sword, but I guess I am hoping to ID it beyond any doubt.
Do you recognise the flowers? Do you think there is any relevance to them, or just randomly chosen decoration?

Regards
Gene

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Atlantia, this piece is fantastic!! Actually when we talked and you spoke of a 'bilbo' I was thinking of an entirely different sword, those considered to be the M1728 (described in numerous works on Spanish weapons, with some dissent on the application of that model date, but military swords used into the 19th c.).
In checking "The Rapier and Small Sword" by the esteemed A.V.B.Norman (London, 1980, p.156) hilt #82 is very much like this sword, though the example has up and down turned quillons, and the pommel is quite different. Norman describes the example with wide range 1660-1795, leaving assessment of your example to the variation in elements.

The term 'bilbo' is often misleading and confusing, and though it is typically regarded as a Victorian collectors term probably derived from the term bilobate (which these asymmetrical shell guard swords are), it seems to have been applied to Spanish swords as early as Shakespeares time. In "Merry Wives of Windsor" the term 'bilbo' refers to a fine sword, however it is used in a metaphoric context.

I would consider this sword a 'bilobate' rapier, and it seems the faceted pommel has been described as mid 18th century I believe attributed to Royal Bodyguards in Spain, but cannot recall for sure the reference. The straight quillons recalling the familiar Spanish cuphilt of the 17th century, and seen on early 18th century swords of this type (also with the wire wrapped grip enclosed by four posts) that are likely associated with the M1728 military pattern, also bilobate with the four post grip.

The 'Sahagum' is of course a Solingen interpretation alluding to the Spanish smith, and as early as 1620's blades with this spurious application I believe were being sent to the Netherlands. I think this note was found in Norman as well, and with the Spanish presence there at the time this sounds very logical.

The scalloped guardopolvo is another possible Spanish feature in my opinion, as the striated clamshell is found often on the guards of Spanish edged weapons.

I'd really like to hear other opinions on this beautiful piece, but wanted to note my observations, which at this point would consider this a Spanish bilobate rapier, possibly an officers, and early 18th century. The clearly Solingen blade with that choice of trademark name may suggest this possibly has provenance to the Spanish Netherlands, and the faceted pommel may be a point of contention to dating the sword.

Thank you for posting this Atlantia, and I look forward to other views.

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... I'd love to hear the members opionions on this sword. Please be kind, its my pride and joy ;-)

Hi Gene,
Envy has been sufocating me ... and doesn't allow me to coment
Forget me not, the day you decide to get rid of it .
Fernando

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Gene,
Envy has been sufocating me ... and doesn't allow me to coment
Forget me not, the day you decide to get rid of it .
Fernando

Hi Buddy :-)

It would look quite at hiome in your magnificent collection!

Thank you for your kind envy ;-) Please do comment, you probobly know more about these than I do.

Regards
Gene

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... Please do comment, you probably know more about these than I do ...

No, it's a mistake. When i need to discuss something i rush to the Net and to the miserable couple books i have, learn the most possible in a moment and come back to drop a coment.
I don't possess a pre-built knowledge (luggage, like we say here) like Jim or Marc (or others) to validate things instantly, as already known from previous experience and learnings. As i don't have a piece the type of this one of yours, i haven't yet cultivated such area.
But i know i like it ... very much
Fernando

[TVV]

Gene,
I cannot make any other comments other than you, Fernando and the rest of the guys here had done it and now I crave Spanish (and Portuguese) rapiers and broadswords on top of everything else I already crave. Before I plunge into acquiring one, I will need to learn a lot, so keep them coming.
Regards,
Teodor

[fernando]

Hi Gene,

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... I can't picture that pattern, so when you talk about M1728 I can't help but think [I]'Isn't that a galaxy in the constellation Andromeda ...

Can you read Spanish (Castillian) ?

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/49-Conchas.pdf

another one:

http://perso.wanadoo.es/jjperez222/tropacab.htm

Fernando

[fernando]

BTW, Gene ... and Jim,
It seems as the grip of the sword under discussion, with the wiring 'locked' by four iron filets, is a pattern used at an earlier stage . I can see precisely the same thing in a Peninsular left hand dagger from the first half XVII century.
... for what it matters.

Fernando

[celtan]

Hi Guys,

I really don't have time to search for data in my books on the subject, but as Jim knows, I love these beasties. I also enjoy the rare opportunity to handle them at the local museum deposits. Please excuse any gaffe that I may committ by writing sans references. These are my two bits:

First: I love how this sword looks, it seems to exude History.

That being said, the bilobate shell-guard is not as deep as that found in the Spanish 1728, it seems somewhat "flatter". It's attachment is completely different to any I have previously seen.

The blade is beautiful, but is more rapier-like than the " a tres mesas" broad no-nonsense blade, utilitarian and characteristical of this type. The only things in this sword that truly look spanish to me are the grip and the pommel.

I seem recall that there are some swords called "espadas del viejo modelo" that were forerunners to the 1728, but they usually held the pas-de-ane to the guard with only two screws. This one seems to have a variation of the four screws "boca de caballo" plate without actually being one...

The attachment itself is via four bolts, instead of the four traditional spanish slotted-head screws so typical of the 1728. Then, many earlier spanish swords used bolts.

My take on this sword is that it is either a forerunner of the M1728, or more probably a beautiful period high-quality variation made by a foreign armourer following the spanish style, so much in vogue across Europe, Asia, Africa, America, and some say even Oceania...

Congrats Gene!

Best

Manuel Luis

BTW: The Sahaguns were Toledo armourers, father and son.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by celtan

Hi Guys,

I really don't have time to search for data in my books on the subject, but as Jim knows, I love these beasties. I also enjoy the rare opportunity to handle them at the local museum deposits. Please excuse any gaffe that I may committ by writing sans references. These are my two bits:

First: I love how this sword looks, it seems to exude History.

That being said, the bilobate shell-guard is not as deep as that found in the Spanish 1728, it seems somewhat "flatter". It's attachment is completely different to any I have previously seen.

The blade is beautiful, but is more rapier-like than the " a tres mesas" broad no-nonsense blade, utilitarian and characteristical of this type. The only things in this sword that truly look spanish to me are the grip and the pommel.

I seem recall that there are some swords called "espadas del viejo modelo" that were forerunners to the 1728, but they usually held the pas-de-ane to the guard with only two screws. This one seems to have a variation of the four screws "boca de caballo" plate without actually being one...

The attachment itself is via four bolts, instead of the four traditional spanish slotted-head screws so typical of the 1728. Then, many earlier spanish swords used bolts.

My take on this sword is that it is either a forerunner of the M1728, or more probably a beautiful period high-quality variation made by a foreign armourer following the spanish style, so much in vogue across Europe, Asia, Africa, America, and some say even Oceania...

Congrats Gene!

Best

Manuel Luis

BTW: The Sahaguns were Toledo armourers, father and son.

Thanks for all your thoughts on this one Manuel,
I always assumed that 'SAHAGUN' was Solingen in pig-latin! I just googled it to try and find more info about your family of smiths and now I see that it's also a town in Spain!!
Thsi thread really is going to be an education for me.
I'm going to do some more research on all the information that everyone has provided so far and try and get 'up to speed' for later today ;-)
Thanks again
Gene

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Gene,



Can you read Spanish (Castillian) ?

http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/49-Conchas.pdf

another one:

http://perso.wanadoo.es/jjperez222/tropacab.htm

Fernando

LOL, I can pick out a few words! But the pictures speak volumes!!
The last picture on this page:
http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/49-Conchas.pdf

Has BIG similarities to my sword. Can't wait for more information, keep it coming :-)

[Jim McDougall]

I just opened this thread, and you guys are truly amazing! It is fantastic to see such excitement and discussion, especially that everybody is turning to whatever resources are at hand to add comments, and that everyone's comments become more and more constructive. This is the kind of threads I had hoped would develop here, and not only do we have a fantastic sword as the object of discussion, but clearly some equally fantastic observers!!

Please keep it going guys!! Outstanding discourse

All the best,
Jim

[celtan]

Precisely. that's a german made version.

Best

M

Originally Posted by Atlantia

LOL, I can pick out a few words! But the pictures speak volumes!!
The last picture on this page:
http://www.catalogacionarmas.com/public/49-Conchas.pdf

Has BIG similarities to my sword. Can't wait for more information, keep it coming :-)

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by celtan

Precisely. that's a german made version.

Best

M

LOL< thanks, I couldn't even read that much! ;-)


Regards
Gene

[Atlantia]

This thread has thrown up an interesting question.

Manuel has informed us that 'SAHAGUN' could refer to a family of Toledo armourers.

I always assumed that it was a bastardisation of Solingen.

It's also a town in Spain!

Can we nail this sword to one of the three definately?


Also, the flower designs on the shells. Does anyone have any thoughts on them?


LOL, this thread has thrown up more questions than I thought it would and I'm very keen to explore them in more depth.

Thanks again to everyone for hleping with this.

Gene

[celtan]

Hi Jim,

Sahagun refers to the Toledo armourers, topographic coincidences nonwithstanding



Their name was so much copied,(like the dog trademark of Master "Perrillo" was by Passau) that it even changed across time, from Sahagun, to Samacum, long after the armourers had become dust.



Regarding the flower, it looks to me like a "margarita", a sunflower.

Best

M

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

...Can we nail this sword to one of the three definately? ...

The name Sahagun comes from a village in the province of Leon, called as such after the marthirdom of two saints, whose name gave its origin, after a couple corruptions. It has nothing to do directly with swords.
Alonzo Sahagun was one of the best sword makers Toledo ever saw and lived around 1570. He had a shop in la Calle de los Armeros.
In the case of your piece, i'd go for the version of a Solingen alusion to the master's name.
... but what do i know ?

Fernando

[fernando]

Hoops, Manolo has posted on the Sahagun thing, in the meantime .
Fernando

[Atlantia]

Hmm, Well I did buy it as a circa 1580 sword, and I always believed it was early rather than late. Is it too much to hope that it was actually made by the Sahagun father?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hmm, Well I did buy it as a circa 1580 sword, and I always believed it was early rather than late. Is it too much to hope that it was actually made by the Sahagun father?

Most unlikely ... the experts will say
Fernando

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by fernando

Most unlikely ... the experts will say
Fernando

It seems they don't know any more than us! I think this one may remain a mystery :-(

[celtan]

Wasn't Sahagun the name of The Shadows Weapon Factory Planet in "Babylon 5"?

: )

Me' self, I have never seen an original Sahagun blade. The one we have here is badly spelled: Samacum.

Cheers

M

Originally Posted by Atlantia

It seems they don't know any more than us! I think this one may remain a mystery :-(

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by celtan

Wasn't Sahagun the name of The Shadows Weapon Factory Planet in "Babylon 5"?

: )

Me' self, I have never seen an original Sahagun blade. The one we have here is badly spelled: Samacum.

Cheers

M

Hey Manuel! B5 was a great show!!


LOL, that was Z'ha'dum! I've been watching seasons 3 and 4 over the last few days while working! Great series.

Where is the misspelt one? Can you post a pic or a link?

I assume mine is spelt correctly? Well assuming they were always spelt in latin?
the inscription on my blade is 'S A H A G V N' do we know if they used 'U' or 'V'?

Regards
Gene

[Atlantia]

More a bump than anything else!
Just wanting to recap and try and decide if we've actually decided anything concrete about my sword?

So, it may not stricly be regarded as simply a Bilbo, not that bilbo is anything more than a victorian collectors term anyway, but you know what I mean.

So what would we call it?
'Spanish Rapier'?

The Blade Inscription purports to be the makers name and not the place of origin.

Some of its elements seem to indicate an early date, some a later date.

And thats it?





Gene

[celtan]

I would call it a "Period rapier made in the spanish style".
They often used V instead of U, but it should be pronounced U, and the latter is the correct spelling also.
Also, Bilbo is a connotation for a cheaply made sword made for export...
Best
Manuel Luis

Originally Posted by Atlantia

More a bump than anything else!
Just wanting to recap and try and decide if we've actually decided anything concrete about my sword?

So, it may not stricly be regarded as simply a Bilbo, not that bilbo is anything more than a victorian collectors term anyway, but you know what I mean.

So what would we call it?
'Spanish Rapier'?

The Blade Inscription purports to be the makers name and not the place of origin.

Some of its elements seem to indicate an early date, some a later date.

And thats it?





Gene

[fernando]

Some (most) times is easier to be told what specimens are not, than what they are. So many weapons are a mix of styles ... whether added within time or originaly intended by the maker. A significant quantity of my stuff falls into that area .
It appears than in (Iberian) typology, you have the 'sword' as so called, belonging to 'military' universe and the 'rapier', that of 'civilian' development ... although also used by military, in determined contexts. Two (of the?) sympthoms which indicate that the piece is a rapier are, the blade being narrow (er), more vocationed to fencing and the knuckle bow being loose, and not screwed or welded to the pommel, a detail not neglectable in Ordnance combat examples.
So your specimen could be called a rapier, although with some military features like, i guess, its guard, typically called boca de caballo (horse mouth), as already mentioned here by the connoisseurs.
A couple forumites can tell you that this guard did not exist till the beg. XVIII century; therefore a pattern later than the (beg. XVII century?) grip. Then if you fix the grip date as being originaly assembled to the (imported blade), you will find that the Sahagun legend is not the maker's mark but an allegory to him, to add value to the blade. This way you could say that, basically, this is a XVII century rapier, with a later military type guard addition.
I don't beleive i dared to adventure giving a presumptious opinnion in such matters..
... Just forget it
Fernando

[celtan]

Hi Fer,

Nice summation!
A note though, the reason its called a boca de caballo is because the hilt/pas d'ane arrangement (sans the bivalve shell guard) united to a four holed table, looked like a period horse's bit.
I was until very recently of the belief that it was because head-on, the shell guard looked like an open horses mouth. Not so! Its the underneath framework that gives it its name.

Cosas veredes Sanxo...

: )

Manolo

[fernando]

Originally Posted by celtan

... Cosas veredes Sanxo ...

.

Pues no me lo diga, Don Manuel
Haven't i burned my brains trying to acomodate the vision of a horse mouth to the sword shell guard ?
We learn until we die.
Glad you told ... me ... and certainly others