My first Keris.....but is it a good one??

[katana]

Hi,
just won my very first Keris seems to have a clearly etched pamor, the Ganja appears separate. The carving looks quite nice, both on the handle and scabbard. The seller describes it having 'jewels', I suspect, that likely (hopefully) semi precious stones. The only pictures I have are the sellers.

So, please, Gentlemen, all comments / information gratefully received....thank you

Regards David

[lemmythesmith]

Hi Katana, congratulations on your first keris!! I bid on that one too It looks like a Bali "tourist" dress, but is nicely carved. The blade looks to be a good one with real pamor clearly visible. I can't really tell from the sellers photo but the pamor threads seem to continue their pattern into the gongo so it may be one piece with the blade-gongo iras.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, it is tourist dress, but not a bad example.

I think you'll find that the blade has a gonjo.

I looked this up on UK ebay. For what you paid, you did well.

However, I think that you will find that the "jewels" are plastic---if you're real lucky they might be glass.

[asomotif]

I think that you will find that the "jewels" are plastic---if you're real lucky they might be glass.

Often they are indeed semi precious plastic

[A. G. Maisey]

You know, theoretically plastic jewels are just fine in Bali art work. All the texts tell us that in Bali art the important thing is the final effect,not the value of the materials used to achieve that effect, this is the reason that you will not infrequently find diamonds and rubies mixed up with glass in court pieces.

So, if you need to use a bit of plastic to achieve that final effect, does it matter?

My guess is that it does not matter to the Balinese, although we might find it a bit off-putting. But they don't really have to please us bules, do they?

[katana]

Thank you very much for all your replies

Sorry lemmythesmith for 'pipping you at the post'

It was the blade's obvious pamor and the nicely carved hilt that attracted me. I wanted at least one to add to my collection. (mind you, I said that when I obtained a Dha ...and now I have two )
Should I be alittle disappointed that this is in 'tourist dress' ? Hopefully, the jewels are not 'semi-precious' plastic But having said that, plastic strips were highly prized by a number of African tribes, due to its scarcity. Thanks A. G. Maisey for the 'hint' about the price I paid, its nice to know I didn't pay over the odds.

When I receive it I will post better pictures and discription.

Kind Regards David

[David]

Originally Posted by katana

Should I be alittle disappointed that this is in 'tourist dress' ?

Well, that depends on what you were looking for in the first place. As has been pointed out, as this particular "tourist" dress form goes, this one is fairly well executed. But this isn't the type of dress that you would expect to find on a blade that was used within the culture in the time period that this blade is from. This is a reasonably nice old Bali blade as far as i can tell from these photos. The dress, however, is probably no older that the 1960s, maybe later (does anybody know when this type of dress first appeared?) and AFAIK never the type of dress that was used within the culture for a serious person's keris. I have heard it suggested that this type of dress may have been used for theatrical purposes, but i have never had that confirmed.
To re-dress this blade probably would not be worth it to you. As is i would say it is definitely worth having, especially if your cost was low. But....if you are looking for a good example of a traditional blade (which this is) in appropriate dress (which this isn't) i am afraid that you will probably be looking for a second keris soon.

[katana]

Hi David ,
thanks for the 'enlightenment', I actually quite like the 'dress' as it is......its the word 'tourist' ...it always gives me the impression of 'poor quality', souvenir wallhangers....which this one does not seem to be. I have seen some 'tourist quality' keris before, these had thin blades and poorly carved hilts ...so please excuse my knee jerk reaction to the word.. 'tourist'

Regards David

PS You are probably right, I can see this one being the first...of a few

[David]

Hi David. I was making no attempts at "enlightenment" here, just merely responding to your question.
There is a reason that i use the word "tourist" in quotation marks. It is not a word i like using simply because it carries a lot of preconceived ideas with it. I don't mean it as a gauge for quality levels. I am just trying to point out that from a cultural perspective this type of dress is not what a Balinese man would general use for his personal keris. I would be interested to know more of the history of this sheath form if anybody knows it, whether it was developed just for the tourist trade or if there is some credence to the idea that they may have been used in traditional theater.
Again, the blade itself is certainly not of "tourist" quality. As for hilts though i would have to say that this is a fairly low level of carving for this particular hilt form. I have often seen old blades like this turn up in this style dress. I have always just figured that someone used what was cheap and available so that they could market the keris without to much of an investment involved. I have a nice one in a variation of this sheath form. It too is a decent carving like yours and the keris fits it perfectly so i kept it and just replaced the hilt with something nicer.

[Henk]

David,

At least you are lucky finding a real keris blade in this keris. I saw this one to on ebay. I think as Alan pointed out that the carving isn't so bad on this one. These type of keris vary from a rather nice carved example with a real blade to a very quickly carved dress with a cut out blade from a sheet of metal with painted pamor. This is certainly tourist stuff. If you're lucky the precious jewels are glass beads.
These kind of keris are used in barong dances, also performed for tourists. I can imagine that during these performances this kind of keris are sold to the public.

[A. G. Maisey]

I don't think this form of dress was ever used in dances in Bali, except possibly in the dances specifically staged for tourists, as remarked by Henk.

I do not know exactly when this form of dress began to appear, but I have never seen any that I could estimate a pre-WWII age for. In the late 1960's I don't think I saw any of this dress around, but it did seem to become fairly prevalent during the 1970's. The early ones used old blades, and there were some pretty decent blades in some of them, but later ones did only use flat iron, with painted on pamor.In recent years I have not seen these in Bali, and I think they may not be being made any longer, which makes this form a worthwhile part of a collection.

On the subject of "tourist quality".
In Bali there is a very wide range of quality that is available to tourists.
Some is superb art, specifically produced for tourist consumption. Some is absolute junk.
Virtually all of the craft and art that we presently identify as "Balinese" is the product of the influence of European artists who went to live in Bali in the late pre-WWII period. The original Balinese art was and is not nearly so refined and not nearly so attractive to the western taste as is the type of thing that we are accustomed to identifying as "Balinese'.A good book on this subject is Urs Ramseyer--"Art and Craft of Bali".

In its application to the keris, the true "tourist quality" keris is a piece of flat iron, with or without painted on pamor.

Any keris that has a traditionally produced blade, whether old, recent, or brand new, is not able to be classified as "tourist". These keris are all a part of a continuing tradition.However, in the case of the keris under discussion, the blade is culturally correct, the dress is not.

David (mod) is absolutely correct when he says that this beautifully carved dress is not culturally correct. This is a product produced for visitors to Bali. However, Balinese men do not always wear culturally correct keris. The photo here was taken in 2007 on the eve of Hari Nyepi, in Kuta.Note the type of keris being worn.

Again David (mod) is correct when he says that the quality of the hilt of the keris under discussion is not particularly good, however, to replace it with a modern, well carved hilt could well cost more than the rest of the keris cost.

[asomotif]

Thread with a flat iron blade in similar dress :

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=tourist+bali

and a thread with old blade in similar 'tourist' dress :

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=tourist+bali

This last on I personally picked up from an estate sale and was probabaly collected 1960/1970's

[brekele]

I have no idea if this both kerises are including in keris tourist catagory, but the worked of pamor and warangka looks not bad (only quality of kinatah & mendak is a bit disturb). For beginner keris colector .....(like me), this is the best way to begin learning about keris before to go further to collect old ones.
They are looking good on the wall

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by brekele

I have no idea if this both kerises are including in keris tourist catagory, but the worked of pamor and warangka looks not bad (only quality of kinatah & mendak is a bit disturb). For beginner keris colector .....(like me), this is the best way to begin learning about keris before to go further to collect old ones.
They are looking good on the wall

I agree. Pamor Rante and Ron Genduru W. are really well made. But Kinatah (daphur) of these Madura kerises are....horrendous (of course is my opinion).
I don't think they are tourist kerises. I think they are for today indonesian people (indonesian people that don't know well keris culture)....maybe they used them in ceremony like wedding, anniversary ...
In the markets (pasar) is easy to find these kerises. On the contrary their sarongs are sober: usually sarongs are jointed with sparkling pendok pendok full of coloured stones (glass)

[katana]

Thank you all for your help and information for me the "Keris Newbie"

The keris has arrived

The blade is 13.5" long, edges are very sharp with definate pamor and is gongo iras. I think the carving is good quality and the blade fits the scabbard 'snugly'. Although the blade is 'real' ...is the pamor / blade of reasonable quality. All comments gratefully received. Thank you

Regards David

[Rick]

Well, using Javanese terms the pamor at the sorsoran looks sort of like Beras Wutah; the problem is the pattern is broken down the length of the Wilah .

I do not know what this effect is known as .
IMO a very nice pattern .

Rick

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by katana

Thank you all for your help and information for me the "Keris Newbie"

The keris has arrived

The blade is 13.5" long, edges are very sharp with definate pamor and is gongo iras. I think the carving is good quality and the blade fits the scabbard 'snugly'. Although the blade is 'real' ...is the pamor / blade of reasonable quality. All comments gratefully received. Thank you

Regards David

I like this pamor (and the blade too)!
How many luks (3 or 5)?
Why gongo iras?

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

I like this pamor (and the blade too)
Why gongo iras?

I was wondering the same thing Marco .

Looks seperate from the pictures .

I count 7 luk .

[Henk]

Very nice pamor. Balinese blade. Certainly not gonjo iras. It is a seperate gonjo.

[David]

Agreed....definitely not gonjo iras. Looks like a nice older blade with a good pamor. I like it!
The hilt actually looks a little better than in the sellers pics, though clearly it is a quick and unrefined job that are usually seen with this type of dress. But it does have deeper carved lines than i expected.

[Rick]

A little dressier but in the same vein .

[katana]

Thank you all for your comments

The pamor extends down the centre of the blade (Wilah ?), the slight gaps are where there is much less contrast but the 'patterning' is there.
The Ganja 'line' is quite rusty but seems to be a line made , perhaps by grinding. But I am not certain. I have taken close ups of both sides of the ganja area, one side seems to follow the pamor so assumed it was gonjo iras

Kind Regards David

.

[David]

Originally Posted by katana

The Ganja 'line' is quite rusty but seems to be a line made , perhaps by grinding. But I am not certain. I have taken close ups of both sides of the ganja area, one side seems to follow the pamor so assumed it was gonjo iras.

I think that's just some good matching where you see the lines meet. I have never seen a gonjo iras that shows that much separation. I would be willing to bet that if you dug around with a pin in that line the gunk would fall away and you would see that separation more clearly.

[Henk]

David,

David is right. This gonjo fits perfectly on the blade. It isn't grinded. In this slight spacing dust and dirt fill up the space. If I would call all my keris with such a gonjo and all keris I see on other places gonjo iras, a seperated gonjo would be a curiousity and not the gonjo iras.

[katana]

Hi David and Henk,
thank you for clarifying that the blade has a seperate ganja. Does this mean that the blade is older ? Or is this feature due to the skill or origin of the blade maker ?
My understanding is the the ganja acts like a cross guard, so would a seperate ganja allow an easier repair if this part is damaged. ?

The pamor of the blade ....is it a layer forge welded to a blade 'core' The reason I ask is the patterning is not even similar when you view the blade both sides (ie an area directly opposite to each other) Or is the folding during forging done many times but not enough to cause the steel to be 'homogenised'?
I also understand that meteoric ores could be added....but how would you know?

Gentlemen sorry for all the questions.....but I am learning , thank you

Regards David

[Rick]

There are a few theories about the function of the Ganja . An esoteric one is that the Ganja is like a stopper on the base of the blade to hold the spirit in the blade .

Mechanically it may have been easier to add a Ganja to widen the blade than to try to forge it all in one piece .

I'd like to see a full shot of the blade profile (dapur) .

The pamor is laminated to both sides of a steel core ; a sandwich of sorts .
Then there are blades made entirely from pamor material with no core .

And
For more learnin'
http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/
scroll down to Asia

[David]

Originally Posted by katana

Does this mean that the blade is older ? Or is this feature due to the skill or origin of the blade maker ?

Not necessarily. A separate gonjo on an Indo keris is not really an indicator of age as it is with Moro kris where a separate gonjo generally indicates a pre-1930 dating.
I do believe that your keris is an older. I haven't read nearly as much about age indicators for Bali keris as Jawa, but it seems to me that this type of Bali keris is older than the late 19th century style that we generally attribute to that more bold Bali look. The diminutive ricikan and the slow, gentle waver of the luk definitely read to me as an older style. I don't know how much older. Perhaps someone has more information.

Originally Posted by katana

I also understand that meteoric ores could be added....but how would you know?

Here's a link to 21 pages of threads were meteoric pamor has been discussed on these forums.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search...earchid=205157
The short answer is that you can never be sure unless you commissioned the piece and watched it be made, but the likelihood is low. Meteoric ore was a rare commodity that was controlled and used sparingly.
Of the 21 pages this particular thread might be helpful to you on this subject.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...eteorite+keris

[katana]

Thank you Rick
I will add a few pics of the blade profile later, and read the link you posted.

Hi David,
an older blade that would be great. I never, before, realised the complexities of Keris .....no wonder you guys have a separate forum
I will certainly read through the posts about the use of meteoric ore ....I know I will find it fasinating. Having held a few meteors and knowing that these travelled the great void of space for millions of years is a 'strange experience'.... no wonder their importance if forged into blade

Thank you all for making me feel so welcome, I appreciate it.

Kind Regards David